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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#71

Post by FirmwareBurner »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #28
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes. Vote them out. Keep raising it. OK. How do I vote out Ursula vd Leyen?

She's facing two more no confidence votes in October. You just need to convince all 720 members of European Parliament from 27 countries to get rid of her and her commission. Easy.

You mean the exact people that put her there in the first place despite her unanimous lack of popularity in Europe and especially in her home country of Germany where she failed upwards?

Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good about this type of democracy.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#73

Post by nickslaughter02 »

graemep wrote: post #41
cynicalsecurity wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK is much worse than EU in terms of privacy and encryption.

It will not be if chat control passes, and I am not sure it was true most of the time before (there was no significant change between Brexit and the Online Safety Act) There were similar problems in areas other than privacy and encryption, or indeed technology.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45274678

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#74

Post by maybewhenthesun »

amelius wrote: post #2

> This is not about catching criminals. It is mass surveillance imposed on all 450 million citizens of the European Union. I think it is also about catching criminals. And they should change their wording to make it more correct, otherwise they will certainly lose this fight.

I agree. The opponents (I am one for sure) are often saying 'This is not about catching criminals'. And they are correct in the sense that it goes much further than catching criminals alone.

But there are a lot of people who are no experts in the matter (even among the politicians deciding this matter) and they will discard reasoning which start with 'it's not about catching criminals', because in many cases that is where the idea originates. Law enforcement has the problem that they can't really do (analog) wiretaps anymore in the digital age and they want to remedy that. However, everybody needs to realize that 'restoring the ability to wiretap' has side effects which are way more dangerous than the loss of the wiretap ability.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#75

Post by FpUser »

yohannparis wrote: post #55
gadders wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

>"Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented."

And be told to sod off.

From Wikipedia: [0]-"Currently, there is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state."

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#76

Post by DocTomoe »

tietjens wrote: post #52
eqvinox wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Datenschutz doesn't prevent court-ordered telecomms surveillance either. This would presumably fall in the same category. (Or in fact be unconstitutional, as BVerfG has already ruled several times regarding blanket data collection in other context.)

Ah, so my email address is highly private info. But all of my communications are not. Great.

No, you see, you can trust Father State. He would never ever do anything bad with your data. Trust him. 1933-1945? 1948-1990? Those were ... different times. He's been on a twelve steps program. He's better now.

Data to private companies? That baker that remembers your telelphone number that's DANGEROUS. He could sell the info how many breadrolls you buy per week to the FSB or the MSS. Also, we would lose a chance to add extra fines to small and medium companies, and no-one wants that, do we? ⸮

The older I become, the more 'government' - regardless of the colors it is wearing at the time - looks like Thénardier to me.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#77

Post by amelius »

varispeed wrote: post #5
amelius wrote: post #2

> This is not about catching criminals. It is mass surveillance imposed on all 450 million citizens of the European Union. I think it is also about catching criminals. And they should change their wording to make it more correct, otherwise they will certainly lose this fight.

Calling it “also about catching criminals” is a framing trick. Sure, if you surveil 450 million people you’ll find some criminals - that’s statistically inevitable. But you’ll also drag far more innocents into suspicion. Even under generous assumptions - 0.01% offender prevalence, 90% detection accuracy, and just 1% false positives - you’d correctly flag ~40,500 offenders while generating ~4.5 million false alarms. F…

Yeah but that wasn't my point.

My point is that "this isn't about catching criminals" is the wrong wording.

You don't start a debate by twisting the words of the other party. No matter how right you are. Otherwise you will be seen as a pariah.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#78

Post by torben-friis »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #47
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

Democracy is incompatible with freedom by definition, it's the dictatorship of the majority over the minority. Especially in a time where controlling public opinion is just a matter of running targeted ad campaigns on social medias and buying newspapers and tv stations. If we like freedom we need to get rid of power centralisation, as much as possible, and give back the power to the individual by removing as many law…

The people doing the public opinion control you mention are powerful private interests.

What makes you think those people would be any less dangerous to your freedom when unbounded by law?

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#79

Post by fluxusars »

Xelbair wrote: post #69
cynicalsecurity wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK is much worse than EU in terms of privacy and encryption.

It is, but i would rather take toothless UK's one over EU's Orwellian nightmare. UK's one is easily avoided. But reality is that NONE of those options should be even considered.

It might be easily avoided now, but it's easy for them to tighten the reins in the future.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#80

Post by nickslaughter02 »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #71
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's facing two more no confidence votes in October. You just need to convince all 720 members of European Parliament from 27 countries to get rid of her and her commission. Easy.

You mean the exact people that put her there in the first place despite her unanimous lack of popularity in Europe and especially in her home country of Germany where she failed upwards? Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good about this type of democracy.

Yes. The same fractions which put her there (EPP and friends) will also pick another puppet who will do their bidding.
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