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Why We Spiral

behavioralscientist.org

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Re: Why We Spiral

#71

Post by patrickhogan1 »

The impact of environment on mental spirals is underrated. I see it clearly in two pickup basketball groups I play with: one where people know your name, greet you warmly, and when you make a mistake they tell you how to improve in a way that makes you think "I can do better" not "I suck." The other is critical, lots of punching down and tense.

The key insight: when you're surrounded by people who genuinely create an atmosphere of belonging and want you to succeed, you know their feedback comes from good intentions. This creates a virtuous cycle. You want to take their advice, and once you improve you naturally want to give the same back to others.

Reminds me of this Simon Brodkin video perfectly capturing startup energy: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/q_FmhWARJ7Q

Re: Why We Spiral

#72

Post by Loughla »

mdallastella wrote: post #69
Waterluvian wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah absolutely! That’s the challenge I’ve seen with anxiety (I’m painting with a broad brush here, and I’m no authority). You can’t outright disable the smoke alarms because sometimes they’re actually working.

That's the difference between functional and disfunctional anxaety. The trick is to figure out which is which.

I am incapable of knowing which is which.

The problem is my rate of correct anxiety guesses is too high. I'm right a lot. But the ridiculous stuff sneaks in as well. This leads to me being constantly anxious and just hating my professional life.

How to fix? Sweet Lord in heaven. How to fix?

Re: Why We Spiral

#73

Post by andrewflnr »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #70
andrewflnr wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you also get disasters when people ignore their gut/"vibes" and try to do the "rational" thing based on more easily nameable evidence. The gut is not reliable , but it is a model that's trained on a lot of data and shouldn't be ignored. As usual there are no easy answers.

Frankly being able to point to specific behaviors that trigger vibes is something that comes easily to me as someone who, again, had to work through identifying trauma responses and reacting accordingly. It’s just a skill I think more people would benefit from picking up. I respond really poorly when I don’t feel understood, but I also have a tendency to be vague on details so it is normal for me to get misunderstood…

Strong agree that more people should have that skill. I've tried to get better at it but I'm probably still pretty meh.

I think good emotional regulation stuff like this would ideally be taught starting in kindergarten along with "don't hit your classmates". Maybe in a better time.

Re: Why We Spiral

#74

Post by lr4444lr »

Much as I criticize CBT, this is one of the few kinds of problems it seems suited for: there is so much data surrounding and so many inputs for a single negative event that it can be very easy to find a pattern breaker, re-frame, or alternate hypothesis without looking too hard. You just need to train it.

Re: Why We Spiral

#75

Post by aGHz »

Loughla wrote: post #72
mdallastella wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the difference between functional and disfunctional anxaety. The trick is to figure out which is which.

I am incapable of knowing which is which. The problem is my rate of correct anxiety guesses is too high. I'm right a lot. But the ridiculous stuff sneaks in as well. This leads to me being constantly anxious and just hating my professional life. How to fix? Sweet Lord in heaven. How to fix?

Keep an anxiety log for a few months. In my experience, this feeling of correctness is a retrospective impression that relies heavily on confirmation bias, and in reality is nowhere near that high. Either way, a concrete log will confirm or deny it.

If it's truly correct, then I'd say it's not anxiety and that you're probably more attuned to subtle cues. You can learn to pay conscious attention to these cues, evaluate them, and decide strategically if you want to act on them. The idea is to keep your advantage without the negative emotional reaction.

If it's not that accurate, having proof can help you internalize that you're just going through some particular emotional process, without according it any undue weight. Having let go of that, you can start picking up mechanical tricks for anxiety management, like breathing techniques.

Re: Why We Spiral

#76

Post by nine_k »

Aurornis wrote: post #55
Waterluvian wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of maturing professionally is how I’ve gotten a better handle on not trusting my gut. He’s here to take my job. The VP knows him and hired him directly. There’s so many signals each week that say I’m right. He’s trying to take credit for a decade of my hard work. He’s going to exploit me and everyone will believe him and not me. The more likely reality: he’s new here and I’ve been here for a decade…

> He’s here to take my job. The VP knows him and hired him directly. There’s so many signals each week that say I’m right. He’s trying to take credit for a decade of my hard work. He’s going to exploit me and everyone will believe him and not me. I think this is where it’s important to know yourself. If you’re having a constant stream of anxiety inducing thoughts and light paranoia, learning how to silence those and…

If the friend was ignoring his gut feeling, what objective instruments did he use instead?

If none, wasn't it was just choosing one gut feeling over another gut feeling?

Re: Why We Spiral

#77

Post by kaffekaka »

mierz00 wrote: post #49

One thing that has “cured” these thoughts for me is having a child. I don’t have time to ruminate like I did previously and I’ve also come to understand people better. It’s funny to see how often we all act like toddlers. It’s also made working in corporate easier, as it turns out telling a toddler no it’s surprisingly good practice for the real world.

Yes, this is important. Learning that other people are not objectively rational or perfect in any way, but in fact emotional and many times just as misguided as my own shortsighted, anxiety-inducing thoughts. So many things about people (others _and_ myself) become reasonable when you look at them in this light.

Re: Why We Spiral

#78

Post by mdallastella »

aGHz wrote: post #75
Loughla wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am incapable of knowing which is which. The problem is my rate of correct anxiety guesses is too high. I'm right a lot. But the ridiculous stuff sneaks in as well. This leads to me being constantly anxious and just hating my professional life. How to fix? Sweet Lord in heaven. How to fix?

Keep an anxiety log for a few months. In my experience, this feeling of correctness is a retrospective impression that relies heavily on confirmation bias, and in reality is nowhere near that high. Either way, a concrete log will confirm or deny it. If it's truly correct, then I'd say it's not anxiety and that you're probably more attuned to subtle cues. You can learn to pay conscious attention to these cues, evaluat…

^^^ This ^^^

Also, a CBT (Cognitive behavioral therapy) with a professional helps a lot.

Re: Why We Spiral

#79

Post by t43562 »

keybored wrote: post #51
t43562 wrote: post #3

I think it's useful to try to always assume the best from others: - If they aren't being friendly this will irritate them in a way they cannot object to too openly. - If they are friendly it will avoid damage and even start an upward spiral. When you're not feeling good enough it's sometimes helpful to remember that even people who create negative impacts often get into positions of power and stay there for one reaso…

> When you're not feeling good enough it's sometimes helpful to remember that even people who create negative impacts often get into positions of power and stay there for one reason or another. i.e if they can do something very badly then why are you so worried about whether you are worthy? How does this help? For all you know they’re a snarky something to people beneath them but not to the right people. Or they are…

If all you care about is success then it's not a help is it? If you have some standards though, then you can tell yourself that the price of standards is that you cannot rise in a corrupt hierarchy and you probably wouldn't enjoy it if you did.

I think this is the kind of reason people emigrate from countries where they feel dominated by whatever group was in power to various newer countries where it is still possible to make their fortune.

Re: Why We Spiral

#80

Post by uncircle »

softwaredoug wrote: post #42
truelson wrote: post #30

A key part of breaking cycles for me has been noticing when my default mode network ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network ) or DMN is being activated, being able to stop, do a series of 4-2-6 breaths to activate the parasympathetic nervous system and focus on what I'm doing in the present. The DMN is the little chatterbox "daemon" always talking in the background. Learning to consistently notice it and…

Anyone who has a restless dog in the evenings can see DMN create anxiety. Like many dogs, my dog gets bored and looks for something to bark at. He scans out the window like I scan social media. He’s got extra energy that seems to need to go somewhere, and that somewhere seems to be looking out the window scanning for threats, barking, sounding meaner than he actually is. It’s like he manufactures anxiety out of nothi…

Great analogy with your dog. I noticed that when I’m doing the washing up, my DMN, for some reason, takes me to ruminate negatively about my relationships, and I constantly have to return my attention to something else. No wonder I’ve come to loathe it and let my dishes pile up.

I find it can be a great tool for creativity, but needs to be directed or at least given some task to chew on; then I can close my eyes in a half nap and all kinds of interesting associations and ideas bubble up.

EDIT: that said, the default mode network should not be unjustly demonized. Its purpose is crucial for reprioritising our goals based on what is important to us at any given time, and the problem with modern living is that we never have enough idle time to ourselves, always distracted by our smartphones, and in the long run it is easy to lose sight over what drives us forward. A simple exercise, harder than it should be for most, is to be idle yet undistracted for 30 minutes. You’ll soon get into a “big picture” view of your life, what is missing, what you wish for yourself; into a kind of goal-oriented view that only kicks in in this mode.

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