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Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

rykarn.se

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Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#71

Post by antisol »

light_hue_1 wrote: post #70
ac29 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly. Wayland screensharing has worked for a long time. I remember using it early in the pandemic when the entire working world seemed to move to Zoom/etc for meetings. So, at least ~5 years?

This is a great example of how horrible the situation is under Wayland. Screen sharing sometimes works. Sometimes doesn't. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_scr... There are countless such threads. Something that always worked perfectly out of the box now has endless workarounds per compositor/desktop system that you use.

Exactly this. Somehow the wayland evangelists don't seem to understand that it's not acceptable that something that was trivial to do and reliable for decades is suddenly buggy and broken half the time.

  I RESOLVED IT by using the x11 protocol
Lol, yep, that's the solution for most of these issues.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#72

Post by antisol »

cies wrote: post #46
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said anything about that. Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant?

> Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant? That's the whole reason for Wayland's existence: such things were not "easily" possible... Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever because these security features were deemed too hard to the point of not being "worth it". So Wayland was started. Someone is developing XLibre, and Xorg fork. It…

> Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever

People keep repeating this claim over and over, but in nearly 30 years as a Linux user and tech news reader, I've seen exactly zero news articles about an epidemic of Linux keyloggers.

> Making Xorg safe was tried many times for many safety-holes

* citation needed

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#73

Post by antisol »

whatevaa wrote: post #62
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #33

All of this was well known when Wayland was developed. They just didn't give a shit about end-users. They had one or two specific things they personally wanted done, and they made sure that was supported, and that's it. And then a few major players decide they're going to push for this new system to become the system, so it's not just "a bad alternative", it's an unavoidably bad fate. This isn't the first case like t…

Linux desktop has never worked for me better than today

I say it was better circa ~2008-2012 than it is today.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#74

Post by antisol »

nitwit005 wrote: post #35
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By all means feel free, but know that you commit yourself to an endless task; every compositor has to have every feature implemented independently. The big two, GNOME and KDE, will need to be handled completely independently. After that, you can ease the process by getting support into wlroots, but that merely makes it easier per compositor; you'll still need to submit patches to every consumer of the library to actu…

You're essentially encouraging people to give up and leave it broken. Sure, a lot of code changes need to happen, but they only need to happen once. There's no real reason to discourage people from stepping closer to the end goal.

> leave it broken

The whole point here is that on X it's not broken at all. And if it was, it would only need to be fixed once.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#75

Post by jrm4 »

dismalaf wrote: post #69
cmxch wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intentional breaking of Xorg to frustrate use isn’t freedom. It’s harm.

Who broke it? It works. It's still there. Plenty of distros use it still... The maintainers just got sick of maintaining it and moved on...

This is such a "technically true, the worst kind of true" take.

Whatever group or person "got Wayland going" collectively or individually made a clear choice to abandon a lot of load-bearing standards, and its disengenuous to not recognize that; and I think why people (like me) still complain is to note that this was at least arguably a mistake.

Wayland's rollout was long and terrible, and more cooperation (as opposed to what actually happened, which was likely "move fast and break things because advancement and shiny things since we are now much more corporate" might have been better.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#76

Post by dismalaf »

jrm4 wrote: post #75
dismalaf wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who broke it? It works. It's still there. Plenty of distros use it still... The maintainers just got sick of maintaining it and moved on...

This is such a "technically true, the worst kind of true" take. Whatever group or person "got Wayland going" collectively or individually made a clear choice to abandon a lot of load-bearing standards, and its disengenuous to not recognize that; and I think why people (like me) still complain is to note that this was at least arguably a mistake. Wayland's rollout was long and terrible, and more cooperation (as oppose…

"Abandoning" standards was done because X11 was the standard and it was too complicated for even the X11 maintainers to want to deal with. Wayland, for better or worse, splits up a lot of responsibilities and even offloads some to the app developer...

Linux has nothing to do with cooperation. It's a survival of the fittest scenario. People make things, then other people either adopt them or don't.

Gnome has a working screen reader on Wayland. They have APIs for accessibility on Gnome. Should RH/Gnome be responsible for all the Wayland compositors and DEs that haven't implemented it? Should they be responsible for a proprietary app that chooses not to work with what they're given?

Again, X11 exists, works, and no one is forcing it to go away. Devs can ignore Gnome/Red Hat things and do whatever they want. Or they can make their own thing work. Blaming others for not doing work they're too lazy to do is wild...

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