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US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

reuters.com

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Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#71

Post by jltsiren »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #47
neither_color wrote: post #23

One thing missing from the public debate and I havent seen any writers I follow bring up: When US companies first started outsourcing their factories to Korea, China, and other countries, they were doing the exact same thing. They were just flying engineers over on business and tourist visas to jump start factories and train the workers. Typically only long term workers bothered getting bona fide employee visas abroa…

I don’t really understand this way of thinking. If someone from USA breaks a law at some point, that doesn’t prevent USA from enforcing a similar law in the future. Not everything is universalist - the interests of the parties are at odds here, and restricting oneself to behaving in a universalist fashion (as a nation) when nobody else does that will just put you at a disadvantage. On the Jobs example - do you expect…

Most laws are little more than temporary opinions. If a law doesn't give you the outcome you wanted, you can always change it. Or you can choose to not enforce it when it would be against your interests.

I believe the point is that it's often impossible to build a factory without sending your experts on site to supervise it. And sometimes you need to send people on a short notice, if something unexpected happens or if the people assigned to that site are not available. Then the people will go in with whatever visas are available on such a short notice, hoping that it's not in the destination country's interests to stop them.

This is fundamentally not about immigration or laws but whether you want to make your country an attractive place to invest in.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#72

Post by knowitnone2 »

ben_w wrote: post #35
exabrial wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not your intention, but I greatly dislike this argument, as it's similar ones were made to justify previous inhumane practices that were legal before the conclusion of the US Civil war. If manual labor is required for agriculture, let the market absorb the real cost and pay the workers the correct wage instead of exploiting them.

Comparative advantage. Consider this vague hypothetical, because I'm not American and don't care about the specifics: Country A, average wage X; country B, minimum wage for legal residents 2X. People from A can on average get a pay rise by working in B while undercutting legal residents of B. Citizens of B then get the stuff cheaper than they otherwise would have, but also might not be as easy to employ. Are current…

no company is telling on themselves saying "We hire illegal immigrants to harvest our crops and paying them below minimum wage"

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#73

Post by neither_color »

Zigurd wrote: post #48
neither_color wrote: post #23

One thing missing from the public debate and I havent seen any writers I follow bring up: When US companies first started outsourcing their factories to Korea, China, and other countries, they were doing the exact same thing. They were just flying engineers over on business and tourist visas to jump start factories and train the workers. Typically only long term workers bothered getting bona fide employee visas abroa…

I have a passport with Chinese visas in it. After standing in line for a few hours to get one myself, I used Visa expediters. A business visa might take a week plus the time and effort to create a letter from the business being visited that explains the purpose of the visit. The visa should be good for several months, at least. The example of Steve Jobs telling someone to get there in a day shows lack of preparedness…

It sounds like China facilitates foreign direct investment by making it faster and easier for foreign companies to set up factories and fly in talent to train local workers.

If I were in a Thucidian power struggle and trying to re-shore industry and all the new manufacturing processes developed abroad in the past 40 years I would consider making it easier for allies who want to invest in the US to do the same.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#74

Post by knowitnone2 »

sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #67
crooked-v wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of food that can't be harvested by machine yet, and probably won't be anytime in the near future.

All the big brains in Silicon Valley can invent a bl*wj*b machine that is sync'd to a cloud-connected VR headset but can't build a machine to pick apples or tomatoes efficiently? Perhaps our priorities as a society are misplaced.

you make it sound so easy - why haven't you built it?

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#75

Post by Guvante »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #47
neither_color wrote: post #23

One thing missing from the public debate and I havent seen any writers I follow bring up: When US companies first started outsourcing their factories to Korea, China, and other countries, they were doing the exact same thing. They were just flying engineers over on business and tourist visas to jump start factories and train the workers. Typically only long term workers bothered getting bona fide employee visas abroa…

I don’t really understand this way of thinking. If someone from USA breaks a law at some point, that doesn’t prevent USA from enforcing a similar law in the future. Not everything is universalist - the interests of the parties are at odds here, and restricting oneself to behaving in a universalist fashion (as a nation) when nobody else does that will just put you at a disadvantage. On the Jobs example - do you expect…

There is a difference between enforcing the law (you can't bring workers here on a tourist visa) and raiding a factory putting everyone into jail.

For the purposes of "was it a reasonable action" yes it is important to understand how the US has acted in the past.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#76

Post by Guvante »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #68
neither_color wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about excusing crime? At least dozens of valid visa holders were caught in the dragnet, some appear to have been in a gray area as to what they were allowed to do(the "strawman" in question), and some were truly sub-sub contracted illegals. The latter could have been apprehended without all the spectacle, and the grey area could've been dealt with tactfully without offending our ally, like, "hey you…

>Who said anything about excusing crime? The person I was replying to. Did we read the same comment? His argument was that the US is wrong to deport Hyundai workers here without legal visas since in his mind, an Apple worker from the story in the book he read, also didn't have legal visa to travel to China on a whim, even though his argument is 100% bogus since the Apple worker most definitely have a visa for that, a…

Please don't pretend that asking to leave the country is the same thing as detaining.

Using deport to reference throwing people in jail is deceptive at best.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#77

Post by Guvante »

jibe wrote: post #7
jleyank wrote: post #3

If they really want to address illegals they should penalize the companies that use them rather than individual workers. Hell, they might be working with companies to stage deport theatre and then looking away when they restock. Like they argue with drugs, remove the demand and the problem will decrease.

"US to target more businesses" - they are!

What specific action did the US government take against Hyundai here?

Or did they just gut their workforce and claim that was "enough of a penalty".

Historically the US has implicitly condoned these illegal actions by employers by refusing to ever take action against them.

There has only ever been action taken against employees, who sometimes aren't even meaningfully informed that they are breaking the law. (Certainly they often know but the employer always knows)

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#78

Post by zzzeek »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #39
neither_color wrote: post #23

One thing missing from the public debate and I havent seen any writers I follow bring up: When US companies first started outsourcing their factories to Korea, China, and other countries, they were doing the exact same thing. They were just flying engineers over on business and tourist visas to jump start factories and train the workers. Typically only long term workers bothered getting bona fide employee visas abroa…

[flagged]

> [paraphrased] What's with this trend on HN ...painting US law enforcement as Nazis who get off on going after innocent people trying to get by?

it's in the newspaper. A lot of us read it

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#79

Post by JKCalhoun »

exabrial wrote: post #17
JKCalhoun wrote: post #11

Curious to see what comes home to roost. I mean when, for example, you clear out the agriculture workers of the U.S. without any thought as to how or what you are going to do to replace them, well, expect higher grocery prices I guess?

It's probably not your intention, but I greatly dislike this argument, as it's similar ones were made to justify previous inhumane practices that were legal before the conclusion of the US Civil war. If manual labor is required for agriculture, let the market absorb the real cost and pay the workers the correct wage instead of exploiting them.

I suppose that's fine if that is your solution. It's easy for me to say "things should probably cost more" because I can afford it.

If I'm allowed to fret a bit for my fellow countrymen, I confess I am saddened that they will have to decide between food or rent in the coming months/years. When my single mom raised my sister and I she had to make that same choice at times.

Re: US to target more businesses after Hyundai raid

#80

Post by JKCalhoun »

sugarpimpdorsey wrote: post #67
crooked-v wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of food that can't be harvested by machine yet, and probably won't be anytime in the near future.

All the big brains in Silicon Valley can invent a bl*wj*b machine that is sync'd to a cloud-connected VR headset but can't build a machine to pick apples or tomatoes efficiently? Perhaps our priorities as a society are misplaced.

Add strawberries and beans.
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