Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

soranews24.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 108 posts

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#71

Post by antonvs »

socalgal2 wrote: post #54
antonvs wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland's population would make it one of the biggest cities in the world, more than double the population of Los Angeles, and more than New York City. Neither of which could be counted as high trust.

The population of Switzerland is ~9 million. The population of LA metro is around 15 million, and NYC metro aroound 20 million LA "the city" might be less but you can't tell where LA ends and it's other parts begin. It's one giant metropolis. Same with NYC.

You can tell where the city ends very easily. There are well-defined boundaries. Government statistics take that into account. Here's the census page for the city of Los Angeles, which lists a population just under 4 million: https://data.census.gov/profile/Los_Angeles_city,_California...

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#72

Post by traceroute66 »

yorwba wrote: post #34

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honey…

> you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying.

Totally irrelevant point.

Walk into any supermarket in a Western country these days.

The place is crawling in CCTV.

The packets of steak and other "expensive" stuff have RFID anti-theft tags on them.

The self-service checkouts have close-up CCTV and anti-theft weight comparison systems.

Many even employ security contractors to stand by the door.

Does it prevent thefts ?

Does it hell. The scumbag steals the goods and says F** Y** to the security guard on the way out. By the time the police get there (if they can even be bothered to turn up for such a minor crime) its too late.

So yes, I am with the original blog. CCTV or not, the sort of thing shown in the blog could only happen in Japan.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#73

Post by sfdlkj3jk342a »

shoobiedoo wrote: post #58
sfdlkj3jk342a wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After traveling for years, I often wonder how various cultures end up high or low trust. Wealth or financial inequality doesn't seem to be the main driving factor, despite seeming an obvious cause. Racial and ethnic homogeneity doesn't always explain it either. Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor.

> Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor. Were native peoples of North America high trust between tribes before colonialism?

I'm not that familiar with them, but my guess would be yes, at least for hunter-gatherers. I would think that bad behavior would get you kicked out of the community and lead to likely death.

The larger ancient cities that farmed would be more interesting, especially because today Latin America is one of the lowest trust regions of the world.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#74

Post by glimshe »

socalgal2 wrote: post #54
antonvs wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland's population would make it one of the biggest cities in the world, more than double the population of Los Angeles, and more than New York City. Neither of which could be counted as high trust.

The population of Switzerland is ~9 million. The population of LA metro is around 15 million, and NYC metro aroound 20 million LA "the city" might be less but you can't tell where LA ends and it's other parts begin. It's one giant metropolis. Same with NYC.

The city of LA is just there for administrative purposes. People who live in "Burbank" or "Pasadena" are seen as living in "Los Angeles" by most people outside the region.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#75

Post by gadders »

sfdlkj3jk342a wrote: post #40
latexr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wish we had a way to make this sort of system work in a low trust society. I’d rather we had a way to change low trust societies into high trust.

After traveling for years, I often wonder how various cultures end up high or low trust. Wealth or financial inequality doesn't seem to be the main driving factor, despite seeming an obvious cause. Racial and ethnic homogeneity doesn't always explain it either. Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor.

Colonialism is turning the UK into a low trust society?

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#76

Post by Anonbrit »

madaxe_again wrote: post #45
bapak wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)

Or just the insurers paying up because the police provided a crime number. This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.

If insurance became expensive enough (and logically the price must continue to rise as claims increase) then there will be a financial advantage for companies to design their shops not to need such insurance

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#77

Post by skissane »

rjh29 wrote: post #41
yorwba wrote: post #34

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honey…

There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

Junior high principal in Hyogo fired for stealing seven half cups of coffee [Feb. 3, 2024]

https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-princip...

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#78

Post by rayiner »

rjh29 wrote: post #41
yorwba wrote: post #34

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honey…

There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

> People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

God I love Japan.

Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#79

Post by rayiner »

socalgal2 wrote: post #46
bapak wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)

I wonder what does it take to get a society to have low criminality. IIUC Japan wasn't always this way. Could other societies become high trust? Singapore is. It wasn't always

Singapore was very deliberate and quite heavy handed in bringing that about: https://paulbacon.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/z...

Re: Tokyo has an unmanned, honor-system electronics and appliance shop

#80

Post by rayiner »

traceroute66 wrote: post #72
yorwba wrote: post #34

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honey…

> you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. Totally irrelevant point. Walk into any supermarket in a Western country these days. The place is crawling in CCTV. The packets of steak and other "expensive" stuff have RFID anti-theft tags on them. The self-service checkouts have close-up CCTV and anti-theft weight compar…

It’s because, in the U.S., nobody will bother to look at the CCTV to catch the perpetrator. Or even if they do, the court will release them because it’s a non-violent offense. The most important deterrent in criminal justice is the certainty that conduct will be punished.
Post reply on HN