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I should have loved electrical engineering

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Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#71

Post by idiotsecant »

sevensor wrote: post #44
carlmr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. Might just be me, but I found it all clicked when we started learning the fundamentals underneath these abstractions. For me it was harder in the first classes because it's about memorizing poorly understood concepts, my brain prefers logically deriving complex concepts as a learning method.

My biggest criticism of EE pedagogy is that it tends to proceed from abstractions and then derive the whole world. This makes it a bit of a slog for a lot of students. I’d like to see an application-first approach that builds up principles from observed behavior. Like, measure the slip in an induction motor and then work out what’s going on there, instead of deriving motors from Maxwell’s equations.

There isn't enough time. A leisurely exploration from observations is what you do on your own time. School has a certain amount of material to convey in a certain time. That means learn the axioms and rules as best you can and get to work paying off that enormous student loan.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#72

Post by ForHackernews »

alnwlsn wrote: post #69
pclmulqdq wrote: post #11

EE encompasses a lot of "engineering that takes hard math" at a professional and research level (similar to "hard CS," just different fields of math), so it is very hard to do as an undergrad, when your background in complex analysis and E&M is weak. Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. The abstraction underneath the field of analog circuits…

I'm sure part of it is that EE claims probably the widest range out there. You can have kilovolts or microvolts, but mostly the same rules apply. Or you can learn how to power a small sensor for years off one small battery, or how to power a country. I don't know many other disciplines that can lay claim to 10-15 orders of magnitude. At most levels, software will be in there somewhere, even those fake flickering cand…

I feel like astronomy probably wins, the magnitudes are literally astronomical.

The Perseus Cluster of galaxies is estimated[0] at something like 816,592 light years in diameter, so that's 10^21 meters, and on the other end 2008 TC3[1] is an asteroid 4.1m across.

[0] https://www.universeguide.com/galaxy/perseuscluster

[1] https://thesolarsystem.fandom.com/wiki/2008_TC3

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#73

Post by tekla »

sevensor wrote: post #44
carlmr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. Might just be me, but I found it all clicked when we started learning the fundamentals underneath these abstractions. For me it was harder in the first classes because it's about memorizing poorly understood concepts, my brain prefers logically deriving complex concepts as a learning method.

My biggest criticism of EE pedagogy is that it tends to proceed from abstractions and then derive the whole world. This makes it a bit of a slog for a lot of students. I’d like to see an application-first approach that builds up principles from observed behavior. Like, measure the slip in an induction motor and then work out what’s going on there, instead of deriving motors from Maxwell’s equations.

Massive waste of time. So much happens in a way that is not intuitive nor easily observable that starting from the math is much better.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#74

Post by Palomides »

Eextra953 wrote: post #70
pclmulqdq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I studied EE in 2012, and by that time, according to professors, there weren't many hardware tinkerers in the group compared to the 1990's. Many more people saw it was a good field that's comparable to CS. At this time, EE was on the way down and CS was on the rise in popularity. The classes were absolutely brutal for most people because they came in with less of an understanding of it.

I think the drop in tinkering is due to the high skill/cost barrier to entry particularly SMT, and lab equipment. If you want to do anything interesting beyond a breadboard and arduino/rpi you are going to need to invest in a custom pcb and lab equipment. With SMT, I got into EE/HW by taking things apart and studying them, back then (late 90's) most consumer stuff still had a good mix of thru-hole and SMT so tinkerin…

I duuno, a custom pcb costs a dollar and you solder it with a cheap hot plate instead of an iron

repair is definitely not the gateway it used to be, though

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#75

Post by pkaye »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #61
pclmulqdq wrote: post #11

EE encompasses a lot of "engineering that takes hard math" at a professional and research level (similar to "hard CS," just different fields of math), so it is very hard to do as an undergrad, when your background in complex analysis and E&M is weak. Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. The abstraction underneath the field of analog circuits…

> Plenty of cutting-edge science needs hobbyist-level EE, it's just not work in EE But aren't there a lot of actual hardware products that are "simple circuit blocks connected to a microcontroller"? Like a toaster, shaver, keyboard, etc. If that's not "work in EE" then what is it classified under? It's not CS either.

That would be Computer Engineering. Its somewhere between EE and CS.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#76

Post by Eggpants »

dfawcus wrote: post #55
pclmulqdq wrote: post #11

EE encompasses a lot of "engineering that takes hard math" at a professional and research level (similar to "hard CS," just different fields of math), so it is very hard to do as an undergrad, when your background in complex analysis and E&M is weak. Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. The abstraction underneath the field of analog circuits…

Yeah - there was a massive filtering of the students between the 1st year entry, and the second year at my Uni. Largely down to people unable to handle the (not terribly) complex maths at that stage. I knew a number of folks in the first year who were very good at practical electronics, having come in from a technician side, but simply gave up due to the heavy maths load. It got more complex when doing Control Theory…

I went into EE wanting to learn how to design CPU’s and thought the analog side would be boring.

However, control theory turned out to be my favorite class. Learning how negative feedback loops are everywhere was an eye opener.

Also learning Laplace transforms was one of my first “holy shit this is freaking clever and cool” moments. Just like how parity bits in data streams can be used to detect AND correct errors.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#77

Post by buildsjets »

justinclift wrote: post #22
rkagerer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And once you're actually using that hammer for real work, you'll learn how to use it to solve all sorts of problems, better than any school could teach you.

Here's a screw, here's a bit of wood. What tool do you use...? ;)

Emacs has a macro for that.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#78

Post by petsfed »

morpheuskafka wrote: post #61
pclmulqdq wrote: post #11

EE encompasses a lot of "engineering that takes hard math" at a professional and research level (similar to "hard CS," just different fields of math), so it is very hard to do as an undergrad, when your background in complex analysis and E&M is weak. Early classes on circuits in EE will usually take shortcuts using known circuit structures and simplified models. The abstraction underneath the field of analog circuits…

> Plenty of cutting-edge science needs hobbyist-level EE, it's just not work in EE But aren't there a lot of actual hardware products that are "simple circuit blocks connected to a microcontroller"? Like a toaster, shaver, keyboard, etc. If that's not "work in EE" then what is it classified under? It's not CS either.

The actual electrical engineering involved there is the sort of thing that an early-career engineer could bang out in an afternoon. Maybe a day or so for the PCB designer. The more time consuming part might be managing the regulatory compliance testing.

Most of the orgs I worked in building simple circuit blocks connected to a microcontroller either farmed out the actual EE work to contractors or design houses or had 1 EE for like 20 different projects.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#79

Post by Aurornis »

Eextra953 wrote: post #70
pclmulqdq wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny. I studied EE in 2012, and by that time, according to professors, there weren't many hardware tinkerers in the group compared to the 1990's. Many more people saw it was a good field that's comparable to CS. At this time, EE was on the way down and CS was on the rise in popularity. The classes were absolutely brutal for most people because they came in with less of an understanding of it.

I think the drop in tinkering is due to the high skill/cost barrier to entry particularly SMT, and lab equipment. If you want to do anything interesting beyond a breadboard and arduino/rpi you are going to need to invest in a custom pcb and lab equipment. With SMT, I got into EE/HW by taking things apart and studying them, back then (late 90's) most consumer stuff still had a good mix of thru-hole and SMT so tinkerin…

I disagree. It has never been cheaper to get decent equipment.

Custom PCBs have been $5/square inch for a set of 3 from OSHPark for many years.

You can buy a usable hot air station on Amazon for the price of a DoorDash meal.

Re: I should have loved electrical engineering

#80

Post by kwakubiney »

Let me give you guys a perspective from someone who did Electrical Engineering in Africa. There are hardly any job openings centered around electronics so the programme/curriculum is Power Engineering heavy. Most of the professors did research around this area, and there were very few who did anything in the sciences. I had the chance to pick some electives from the Computer Engineering department, but this was just during my third and final year of university. Unlike OP, I did not have an issue breezing through circuit problem sets, though they felt very repetitive, I was not bad at it, nor did I fail any classes.

I had an eye opening experience when I had my first taste of programming when I took C programming in my second year of university. What do you mean I can run a command and see instant output? Amazing! This was not the case for my electronics and power engineering lab sessions. We were using equipment that had been around since the 80s with little to no supervision. Just a bunch of routine "experiments" which I can barely remember any of. In my third year, I took Digital Computer Design (a C.E elective) and I realized I had been wasting my time learning about how the power grid in my country works. I tried my best to salvage as much as I could by picking more C.E electives, albeit not many available, did as best I could.

Everyday I wonder, how different would my life have been if I studied CS or even CE, I do not know. But, I appreciate the little this journey taught me, that you can always squeeze lemonade out of whatever lemons life gives you. I see my old EE notes now and they don't make sense to me, but I appreciate the happy chills solving circuit problem sets gave me. I work in software now, and I get that 1000x more, and that is how I know I made the right choice.

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