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The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

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Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#71
post #20

Everyone loves the dream of a free for all and open web. But the reality is how can someone small protect their blog or content from AI training bots? E.g.: They just blindly trust someone is sending Agent vs Training bots and super duper respecting robots.txt? Get real... Or, fine what if they do respect robots.txt, but they buy the data that may or may not have been shielded through liability layers via "licensed d…

What we need is some legal teeth behind robots.txt. It won't stop everyone, but Big Corp would be a tasty target for lawsuits.

Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#72

I use uncommon web browsers that don't leak a lot of information. To Cloudflare, I am indistingushable from a bot. Privacy cannot exist in an environment where the host gets to decide who access the web page. I'm okay with rate limiting or otherwise blocking activity that creates too much of a load, but trying to prevent automated access is impossible withou preventing access from real people.

The website owner has rights too. Are you arguing they cannot choose to implement such gatekeeping to keep their site operating in a financially viable manner?

Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#73
post #20

Everyone loves the dream of a free for all and open web. But the reality is how can someone small protect their blog or content from AI training bots? E.g.: They just blindly trust someone is sending Agent vs Training bots and super duper respecting robots.txt? Get real... Or, fine what if they do respect robots.txt, but they buy the data that may or may not have been shielded through liability layers via "licensed d…

> Everyone loves the dream of a free for all and open web.

> protect their blog or content from AI training bots

It strikes me that one needs to chose one of these as their visionary future.

Specifically: a free and open web is one where read access is unfettered to humans and AI training bots alike.

So much of the friction and malfunction of the web stems from efforts to exert control over the flow (and reuse) of information. But this is in conflict with the strengths of a free and open web, chief of which is the stone cold reality that bytes can trivially be copied and distributed permissionlessly for all time.

Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#74
post #20

Everyone loves the dream of a free for all and open web. But the reality is how can someone small protect their blog or content from AI training bots? E.g.: They just blindly trust someone is sending Agent vs Training bots and super duper respecting robots.txt? Get real... Or, fine what if they do respect robots.txt, but they buy the data that may or may not have been shielded through liability layers via "licensed d…

> But the reality is how can someone small protect their blog or content from AI training bots?

A paywall.

In reality, what some want is to get all the benefits of having their content on the open internet while still controlling who gets to access it. That is the root cause here.

Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#75
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can lock it up with a user account and payment system. The fact the site is up on the internet doesn’t mean you can or cannot profit from it. It’s up to you. What I would like it’s a way to notify my isp and say, block this traffic to my site.

> What I would like it’s a way to notify my isp and say, block this traffic to my site. I would love that, and make it automated. A single message from your IP to your router: block this traffic. That router sends it upstream, and it also blocks it. Repeat ad nauseum until source changes ASN or (if the originator is on the same ASN) reaches the router from the originator, routing table space notwithstanding. Maybe it…

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Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#77
post #16

Well, if you have a better way to solve this that’s open I’m all ears. But what Cloudflare is doing is solving the real problem of AI bots. We’ve tried to solve this problem with IP blocking and user agents, but they do not work. And this is actually how other similar problems have been solved. Certificate authorities aren’t open and yet they work just fine. Attestation providers are also not open and they work just…

AI poisoning is a better protection. Cloudflare is capable of serving stashes of bad data to AI bots as protective barrier to their clients.

AI poisoning is going to get a lot of people killed, be cause the AI won't stop being used.

Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#78
post #7

I understand the concerns around a central gatekeeper but I'm confused as to why this specifically is viewed negatively. Don't website owners have to choose to enable cloudflare and to opt-in to this gate that the site owners control? If this was cloudflare going into some centralized routing of the internet and saying everything must do X then that would be a lot more alarming but at the end of the day the internet…

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Re: The web does not need gatekeepers: Cloudflare’s new “signed agents” pitch

#80
post #20

Everyone loves the dream of a free for all and open web. But the reality is how can someone small protect their blog or content from AI training bots? E.g.: They just blindly trust someone is sending Agent vs Training bots and super duper respecting robots.txt? Get real... Or, fine what if they do respect robots.txt, but they buy the data that may or may not have been shielded through liability layers via "licensed d…

You might have this the wrong way around.

It's not the publishers who need to do the hard work, it's the multi-billion dollar investments into training these systems that need to do the hard work.

We are moving to a position whereby if you or I want to download something without compensating the publisher, that's jail time, but if it's Zuck, Bezos or Musk, they get a free pass.

That's the system that needs to change.

I should not have to defend my blog from these businesses. They should be figuring out how to pay me for the value my content adds to their business model. And if they don't want to do that, then they shouldn't get to operate that model, in the same way I don't get to build a whole set of technologies on papers published by Springer Nature without paying them.

This power imbalance is going to be temporary. These trillion-dollar market cap companies think if they just speed run it, they'll become too big, too essential, the law will bend to their fiefdom. But in the long term, it won't - history tells us that concentration of power into monarchies descends over time, and the results aren't pretty. I'm not sure I'll see the guillotine scaffolds going up in Silicon Valley or Seattle in my lifetime, but they'll go up one day unless these companies get a clue from history as to what they need to do.

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