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Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

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Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#71

Post by yehoshuapw »

anon84873628 wrote: post #44
angiolillo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm typing this on a swiping keyboard. It's different enough that a better layout might have been worth it here... Perhaps, but as someone who has been proficient in QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak, and who now uses Colemak-DH I can say that I leave my phone and small tablet keyboards on QWERTY. The separation of common letters in QWERTY forces your finger to move farther when swiping, but that provides a bit more dist…

Same here. I adopted Dvorak as a youth, so when I got my first smartphone I put the keyboard in Dvorak. That only lasted a few days for two reasons: 1) What you said about the mistakes. It is so much easier to fat finger in a way that makes autocorrect clueless. 2) The muscle memory doesn't translate at all anyway. Obvious in retrospect, but typing with your thumbs is a completely unrelated skill to touch typing. Tur…

for phones, have a look at thumbkey https://github.com/dessalines/thumb-key (messagease like)

I also recommend dactly (see also https://ryanis.cool/cosmos/ for a more generic keyboard generation)

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#72

Post by userbinator »

alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed.

If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers, you are being bottlenecked by your typing. Most people think and speak faster than they can type, especially in short bursts; and I'm saying that, as someone who can comfortably type at ~160-180wpm and burst over 200 for a few seconds at a time, I still find myself waiting for my fingers. Holding a conversation over IM is one of the most common places where this bottleneck becomes very noticeable.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#73

Post by toastal »

justsomehnguy wrote: post #61
alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab. Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this

NiZ manufactures a reprogrammable 75% split keyboard in their L84 series. Granted this isn’t mechanical, but a (subjectively suprerior) electrostatic capacitive switch keyboard.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#74

Post by adrian_b »

Zambyte wrote: post #58
alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

I switched to Dvorak around five years ago now. I decided to switch at the same time as switching to a columnar split keyboard (specifically the ZSA Moonlander, which is still my primary keyboard (my secondary is the ZSA Voyager for travel)). I did this switch at the same time, because I felt like it would be a sufficiently different keyboard that I wouldn't have as concrete of muscle memory, and I wouldn't be fighti…

I also do not agree with TFA that the keyboard layout does not really matter.

I have switched a few years ago to Dvorak. I do not think that this has changed much my typing speed, which has never been important for me. However, it has greatly increased my typing comfort.

Now I consider that switching to Dvorak was one of my best decisions and I only regret that I have spent decades using Qwerty without trying alternatives.

Of course, using an ergonomic keyboard is at least as important as the key layout.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#75

Post by knorker »

alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

The much reduced hand movement is extremely comfortable, paying dividends every day. And it fixed my RSI.

Of course over long periods of time we're bottlenecked by our brains. But the things to write come in bursts, and typing speed blocks there. Also transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed.

My experience completely contradicts your assertions.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#76

Post by Perenti »

I have issues with my right hand due to damage to my brachial plexus. I changed to Dvorak about 22 years ago, and have far less fatigue and pain when typing longer documents.

The article mentions in passing how Dvorak may help people with physical hand issues - well it certainly helps for me. YMMV

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#77

Post by rlkf »

teo_zero wrote: post #69

For a keyboard that aims to the title of "Scientific", isn't it weird to offer the "zero" key after the "9" instead of its natural (mathematically speaking) position before the "1"?

The original Dvorak layout had 0 positioned on the right index finger (where 7 is on Qwerty keyboards). The layout of the numeric keys on what passes as a "Dvorak" layout today was apparently determined by the ANSI committee for... reasons.

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#78

Post by kqr »

userbinator wrote: post #72
alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed. If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers, you are being bottlenecked by your typing. Most people think and speak faster than they can type, especially in short bursts; and I'm saying that, as someone who can comfortably type at ~160-180wpm and burst over 200 for a few seconds at a time, I still find myself w…

Also when trying out different ways to form a sentence, or prototyping simple code. Typing fast is not about throughput, it is about latency.[1]

[1]: https://entropicthoughts.com/typing-fast-is-about-latency-no...

Re: Untangling the myths and mysteries of Dvorak and QWERTY (2023)

#79

Post by dsego »

alpaca128 wrote: post #13

The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others.…

The stagger is beneficial for the right hand but makes it harder for the left hand. An ortholinear layout is not more comfortable, ideally there should either be a symmetrical or columnar stagger.
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