Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

newscientist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 132 posts

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#71

Post by lelandbatey »

FireBeyond wrote: post #70
lelandbatey wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch out, some tree roots may be stronger than the rooter used to clear them, in which case the rooter company may end up with a rooter trapped in your pipe, as happened to my parents. Ultimately they had to get the sewer line excavated and replaced where it met the city sewer, 15 feet down in the middle of the road. Cost like $30k. Maybe ask the rooter company what happens if they end up with equipment trapped jamm…

That to me seems like something that should be covered by the company's insurance. Any services company that comes out, ens up with breaking their tools because they used inadequate tooling, and causing more damage? I don't know how they managed to foist that on to your parents. The issue wasn't the tree roots, it was the rooter company's poor investigation. Video scoping a sewer line is trivial these days.

Oh, they video scoped the sewer, and my parents (father is a lawyer) went after them. Ultimately, the rooter company decided they'd rather go for the full legal battle and my parents decided "eh, we know how awful a legal battle is, we'll back down and not sue."

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#72

Post by bluGill »

mschuster91 wrote: post #51
Spooky23 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s really high. There’s either a big problem in your city, or they are making generous estimates to justify asking for more capital. 10-15% is more typical. In my region, the street trees are usually getting sewer water. Residential service in older houses are usually clay pipes with lead solder that the tree infiltrates. It’s not a problem until the clay pops and roots clog it. It varies a lot by region and juri…

Here in Germany, we estimate sewer infrastructure to last anywhere from 50-100 years, and water mains around 50-ish years. After that, it needs replacement or, that's the modern thing but it's a one-trick pony, re-lining. The prudent thing would be to set aside and invest a tiny bit of money every year to fund a replacement, but unfortunately modern economic theory ("run lean") and manufactured income crises (aka, po…

Smart is to have a crew that replaces a little every year. That way they build expertise in how to do it and there isn't a large expense all at once. You can likely get a discount with private plumbers because you want it done sometime and so they schedlue around other customers who want it now.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#73

Post by bluGill »

lupusreal wrote: post #41
x775 wrote: post #34

> Maple trees need to consume around 50 litres of water per day. Since street trees can’t get much of this from rainwater, which falls on concrete and drains into the city’s sewers, Poirier says the most likely explanation is that it is coming from Montreal’s leaky pipes, which lose 500 million litres of water per day. I feel like this is burying the lede. What can be done to reduce leakage?

Why should anything be done to reduce leakage? They take water out of the St Lawrence and, as much isn't diverted by trees, it goes back in (cleaner then when it came out.)

Because trees will clog those pipes eventualay and then we must dig them up. Pipes that don't leak don't attract roots and so last longer

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#74

Post by bluGill »

londons_explore wrote: post #26
cyanydeez wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those leaks are 99.9% one way.

That way being 'sewage leaking into the ecosystem '? Followed by ecosystem being collected and put back into drinking water, most of which only has pretty lightweight treatment which doesn't even involve testing for any viruses which have snuck through.

Most of the time the local soil is well able to purify the small amount that leaks. Most is key, see and expert on your local conditions for details.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#75

Post by bluGill »

pixl97 wrote: post #49
npstr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't they bill for it? It's not like they are losing money on it, it's simply getting priced into the billable services they provide. Utilities are usually monopolistic, so there is little incentive for them to fix this.

> so there is little incentive for them to fix this. This kind of stuff is typically death by a thousand cuts. Add on that a lot of the places it leads are under roads that will have to be shut down for weeks/months and you start to realize the costs and impact of fixing these leaks are enormous.

If it is a local leak they can fix it in a few hours but most often the whole pipe leaks (or maybe every joint) and so the whole road needs be redone - thus it is worth waiting for the road to wear out.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#76

Post by AngryData »

buildsjets wrote: post #27
panarchy wrote: post #11

Or if you're a willow tree you make a leaky pipe.

Some genius planted a curly willow right in the middle of my house’s septic drain field. That tree cost me $20,000.

Reminds me when I installed a drain field for a guy that had to have trees in the woods cleared and dug up for space and everything pumped 100 feet up a hill to it due to the terrain. Just as I was finishing up he asked when he could park his 40 foot boat on top of it and was outraged when I said he can't/shouldn't do that, he then declined the offer to have us clear more area before we loaded up all the equipment. All I could imagine as I drove away was the river of shit flowing back down the hill to his house in a few years.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#77

Post by AngryData »

x775 wrote: post #34

> Maple trees need to consume around 50 litres of water per day. Since street trees can’t get much of this from rainwater, which falls on concrete and drains into the city’s sewers, Poirier says the most likely explanation is that it is coming from Montreal’s leaky pipes, which lose 500 million litres of water per day. I feel like this is burying the lede. What can be done to reduce leakage?

While there are some interior pipe lining solutions, they are just kind of a short term bandaid that will cost more in the long run and has its own complications, the only real answer is to bury brand new pipe. And that can get expensive if a lot of stuff has been built on top and around it which is why most municipalities just live with even major leaks and kick the can down the road until it breaches the surface and starts flooding areas. It is probably cheaper to replace them sooner rather than later in the long run, but no politician cares about how well a city's finances will be decades after they are gone.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#78

Post by SoftTalker »

gnopgnip wrote: post #28
londons_explore wrote: post #21

I wonder how much human health is impacted by these leaky pipes. I would like to see a city where pipes are guaranteed leak free, for example by making them double walled with high pressure air in the outer layer, and then seeing if disease levels in the city are lower.

Alameda county does something similar for health reasons. All home sales require pressure testing the sewer lateral. With replacement required if it fails before the deed can transfer or a loan is funded.

Does the buyer or seller pay for the repairs?

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#79

Post by SoftTalker »

npstr wrote: post #38
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, utilities do care quite a bit about leaks (it's service they are providing which they can't bill for!) and use various testing apparatus to locate leaky parts of underground systems for repair and replacement. Considering the difficulty and cost of repairing underground anything, most of which will be there for many many decades, it's never going to be perfect, but there's a lot of resources that…

Why can't they bill for it? It's not like they are losing money on it, it's simply getting priced into the billable services they provide. Utilities are usually monopolistic, so there is little incentive for them to fix this.

They do, but rates are regulated, they can’t just tack on this month’s pipe replacement expenses. They have to make a guess, propose a rate increase, and get it approved by the relevant regulator or government authority.

Re: Trees on city streets cope with drought by drinking from leaky pipes

#80

Post by estimator7292 »

bluGill wrote: post #72
mschuster91 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany, we estimate sewer infrastructure to last anywhere from 50-100 years, and water mains around 50-ish years. After that, it needs replacement or, that's the modern thing but it's a one-trick pony, re-lining. The prudent thing would be to set aside and invest a tiny bit of money every year to fund a replacement, but unfortunately modern economic theory ("run lean") and manufactured income crises (aka, po…

Smart is to have a crew that replaces a little every year. That way they build expertise in how to do it and there isn't a large expense all at once. You can likely get a discount with private plumbers because you want it done sometime and so they schedlue around other customers who want it now.

That doesn't track because the real cost to replacing underground infrastructure is not the digging, materials, or labor. We avoid such maintenance as long as possible because shutting down a road is usually very expensive in terms of second-order effects.

Digging up a pipe and replacing it is actually pretty cheap and easy. Disrupting a main thoroughfare is incredibly expensive in terms of lost productivity, transport, shipping.

Post reply on HN