Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while • Hacker News Board

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#71

Post by prpatel » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:45 AM UTC

suthakamal wrote: post #21

ericxtang wrote: post #12

What about things like Titanium or RubyMotion? They compile to native and allow you to have a "unified" code base.

(I wrote the original article.) These frameworks typically just allow you to wrap native methods with JavaScript... so you're not really writing to a single cross-platform code base. Morever, if you can build your app entirely in the HTML/JS/CSS side of things, you're golden... as soon as you start to bridge between the Native and JS layers, things get messy (and often very slow).

What? You make no sense. In your original article you advocate going native for now and eschewing Web tech. Now you say that "you're golden" if you use Web tech? Then you top it off by saying bridging down to native is slow.....

Are you just talking out of your ass? Have you actually built an application using Ansca Corona, Ruby Motion, or Appcelerator Titanium? Have you built a published native and Phonegap app to the Android or iOS store? Well, I have done all of these - and I even speak about it at conferences[1][2]. I can safely say you have no idea what you're talking about or you are pushing a hidden agenda.

[1] http://lanyrd.com/2012/lone-star-symposium-austin/stbht/ [2] http://lanyrd.com/2012/uberconf/stcdt/

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#72

Post by netshroud » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:55 AM UTC

no_more_death wrote: post #61

batista wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been two and a half years since that, and still HTML5 has major issues. Given Apple's engineering prowess, I doubt that HTML5 is a priority for them, or else they would've had a great implementation by now. Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari? And this is Google, the guys that really like mobile html5 apps. Fact is, it's not that easy to make a good mobile brow…

Picking on one point: "Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari" The stock Android browser fell behind in late 2010. If you follow PPK of quirksmode.org you know this (e.g., the following article was authored just before stock android fell behind: http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/browsers.html ). After that article he really began hating all over Android due to the fall-be…

> such as the S3 which singlehandedly outsold the iPhone in August

Source for that? Last I heard Samsung hadn't actually released any stats.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#73

Post by josteink » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:58 AM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #67

josteink wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari? "Android's browser"? Care to elaborate on which browser that is? The one built from source? Which version of the source would that be? Or would it be Chrome? Or Firefox? Or Opera? Or Dolphin? Or Maxthon? or MIUI browser? Or the one included with TouchWiz? In which case, which version of Touchwiz? And how is it "even worse"? You mea…

> I'm not debating the correctness of your statement, Actually you are. > but when you start out with something as mindblowingly > pointless as "Android's browser is even worse" it's hard > to take the rest of your point seriously. It is not pointless. Don't pretend to be silly as not to understand what "Android browser" is.

> Don't pretend to be silly as not to understand what "Android browser" is.

In that case, I challenge you to pinpoint what browser I'm writing this comment from. It should be obvious. It is the Windows-browser.

(And before you start debating how that sounds ludicrous, take a step back and realize how Android is more like Windows and Linux than iOS when it comes to software-choice, not to mention versions and revisions and forks)

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#74

Post by mtgx » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 11:58 AM UTC

ender7 wrote: post #13

Sadly, Apple and/or Google have the power to retard the adoption of HTML5 as long as they like. "But ender7," you say, "both Mobile Safari and Chrome have great support for HTML5." Yes, they do. Sort of. Except for the crippling bugs in many of their implementations. Some of these bugs render the APIs in question essentially useless on mobile. Or just a giant pain in the ass to work around. Or have performance issues…

Not to mention Apple willingly holding the JIT from being used in the embedded browser.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#75

Post by josteink » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 12:02 PM UTC

netshroud wrote: post #72

no_more_death wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking on one point: "Well, noticed how Android's own web browser is even worse in HTML5 than Mobile Safari" The stock Android browser fell behind in late 2010. If you follow PPK of quirksmode.org you know this (e.g., the following article was authored just before stock android fell behind: http://www.quirksmode.org/mobile/browsers.html ). After that article he really began hating all over Android due to the fall-be…

> such as the S3 which singlehandedly outsold the iPhone in August Source for that? Last I heard Samsung hadn't actually released any stats.

I remember the news was all over the tech-web, including HN. A quick Google will yield you multiple hits, but in case you are lazy (I know I am), here is one of them:

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/380534/20120904/apple-samsun...

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#76

Post by darkstalker » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 12:15 PM UTC

I would say Go native, HTML5 is going to lag forever, since even on a modern desktops, the performance of HTML5 is way behind native apps. Besides that, HTML5 is an amalgamation of technologies that feels awkward to use for someone who has wrote native apps. I would like to see something like XUL added to HTML5, so you can write web interfaces in a more sane way.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#77

Post by CJefferson » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 12:18 PM UTC

prpatel wrote: post #71

suthakamal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I wrote the original article.) These frameworks typically just allow you to wrap native methods with JavaScript... so you're not really writing to a single cross-platform code base. Morever, if you can build your app entirely in the HTML/JS/CSS side of things, you're golden... as soon as you start to bridge between the Native and JS layers, things get messy (and often very slow).

What? You make no sense. In your original article you advocate going native for now and eschewing Web tech. Now you say that "you're golden" if you use Web tech? Then you top it off by saying bridging down to native is slow..... Are you just talking out of your ass? Have you actually built an application using Ansca Corona, Ruby Motion, or Appcelerator Titanium? Have you built a published native and Phonegap app to t…

Could you please either link to a copy of your talk, or some material? Or alternatively (if possible), just give the 3 sentence version of your talk? I'm just about to decide what to system to build a new project on, and I'm interested in your opinion.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#78

Post by its_so_on » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 12:27 PM UTC

going native is like going skinny-dipping. a lot of freedom and exquisite possibilities, but with it comes responsibility - and you can easily get yourself into trouble.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#79

Post by marknutter » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 1:00 PM UTC

darkstalker wrote: post #76

I would say Go native, HTML5 is going to lag forever , since even on a modern desktops, the performance of HTML5 is way behind native apps. Besides that, HTML5 is an amalgamation of technologies that feels awkward to use for someone who has wrote native apps. I would like to see something like XUL added to HTML5, so you can write web interfaces in a more sane way.

Are we all forgetting why people build web apps in the first place? It's not about performance.

Re: Go native, HTML5 is going to lag for a while

#80

Post by marknutter » Mon, Sep 10, 2012, 1:04 PM UTC

suthakamal wrote: post #18

ricardobeat wrote: post #3

A smartphone today can talk to all sorts of other devices: TV remotes over WiFi, watches and headphones over Bluetooth, health-sensors and car stereos through dock connectors, and TVs over AirPlay. All this is beyond the reach of HTML apps. That's almost the entire point of PhoneGap and similar frameworks, exposing these via APIs. He's confusing using HTML/CSS/JS for UI in a "native" app with making a web app.

(I wrote the original blog post.) You're right that things like PhoneGap give access to native features. However, the Native-API-implementations in these frameworks are 1) typically significantly behind the native OS (release date) 2) tend to have less-than-feature-parity So, often you're stuck writing your own native bridge, or tweaking the portability framework's version, which is time wasted (IMO) vs writing to th…

You are criticizing HTML5 far too broadly. Yes, it may not be the best choice for building a game, or a photo heavy app. But it's good for building mostly text based apps, which represent the vast majority of the (mostly crappy) native apps out there.