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Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

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Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#71

Post by robocat »

dkarl wrote: post #49
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

It's a very specific form of authenticity. It's the authenticity of people who don't make an effort, who don't feel any need to try, who know that people are going to accept them and look up to them no matter how shitty they are. But for regular people it's a fantasy. Because it only works if you're rich.

What a weird viewpoint.

> But for regular people it's a fantasy

So for authentic people it's a fantasy???

I can only imagine that either

(a) you struggle to differentiate fake authenticity from authentic fakeness

or (b) perhaps you don't have enough authentic non-wealthy acquaintances.

Some welloff people countersignal successfully. But many don't because status signaling is difficult (evolutionarily).

> it only works if you're rich

And you imply that you think that people look up to the rich - however many people don't - perhaps that says something about your own pretensions?

Disclaimer: I'm a well off geek - definitely not rich and I'm rather poor at recognizing or playing status games.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#72

Post by samdoesnothing »

lovich wrote: post #56
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulation of shameful behaviour? That's worked out wonderfully in the past.

European governments have regulations for anti social behaviors that curb some excesses and they haven’t collapsed. So I would agree, they have worked in the past

Governments once banned interracial relationships and marriage, homosexuality, women working outside the home, divorce, birth control, dancing, drinking etc, on account of contributing to anti-social behaviour. It's true that they haven't collapsed, but I don't think that's because those things were once banned.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#73

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

robocat wrote: post #71
dkarl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very specific form of authenticity. It's the authenticity of people who don't make an effort, who don't feel any need to try, who know that people are going to accept them and look up to them no matter how shitty they are. But for regular people it's a fantasy. Because it only works if you're rich.

What a weird viewpoint. > But for regular people it's a fantasy So for authentic people it's a fantasy??? I can only imagine that either (a) you struggle to differentiate fake authenticity from authentic fakeness or (b) perhaps you don't have enough authentic non-wealthy acquaintances. Some welloff people countersignal successfully. But many don't because status signaling is difficult (evolutionarily). > it only work…

> fake authenticity from authentic fakeness

I'm curious what you mean by these, I have an idea but I don't want to misconstrue you.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#74

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

SeanSullivan86 wrote: post #43
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Senior management doesn't like it, in my experience. But I agree it makes sense for many interactions.

Not everyone will appreciate your authentic self, that's the inherent risk which requires bravery to overcome. It might also be simply not worth the risk, but either way you should act in a way that you can respect. There are things I wouldn't do because I consider them too risky, but I can still respect myself because I'm the one making the judgement call. It's when I act inauthentically because of the fear, not the risk, that I lose respect for myself and I do my best to avoid it.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#75

Post by b_e_n_t_o_n »

mmaunder wrote: post #55
SeanSullivan86 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senior management doesn't like it, in my experience. But I agree it makes sense for many interactions.

The legal fiction that is the corporation is the antithesis of authenticity, and the brand they invest so heavily in, its mask. Having an authentic employee risks removing the mask.

The rise of corpo-culture is a big factor in the loss of authenticity in society.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#76

Post by stinkbeetle »

aanet wrote: post #30

This is perhaps the best articulation on the rise of certain cantankerous people... in social media / politics / The metaphor of the game is a good one for general understanding (though the Signaling / Counters-signaling paper is a TIL for me) I was hoping that there would be a "solution" of sorts to tackle / handle this issue of when EVERYBODY seems to use this strategy, but perhaps there isn't one...? (My own way o…

Shame has always been used to establish and maintain social structures and norms.

Is there some sudden rise of it? All my life I've been told by politicians and media corporations and others that I should be ashamed of various things that I think and do and am, as a poorly veiled effort to gain power by controlling people. And before my generation it had been going on a long time, with women wanting independence, black people wanting equal rights, men not wishing to be drafted to wars, gay rights, etc. I think shame and shaming has been a constant, and doesn't arise come from politics or media but human nature.

And I think most upheavals of the status quo have had to overcome this shame barrier. Shaming is probably a very effective psychological tool to conserve social order, but if it's abused or if people want change enough, eventually the lid will pop, and then when there is some critical mass moving away they actually bond together and take pride in being shameless and offending the people trying to shame them, and even might go to exaggerated lengths to do these "shameful" things and rile people up.

So I don't think it is that people or the politicians they vote for just decided they would use it as a strategy. I think it's actually that shame (which they see as coming from an "outgroup") is no longer a viable strategy.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#77

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #70
marcus_holmes wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

Authenticity doesn't mean you act in a way that the majority approves of, in fact it's often the opposite case. It also doesn't make any presuppositions about the morality of specific behaviour. To be authentic is to be your true self, despite what others think which requires bravery and that is something people admire. If something is considered shameful is a subjective judgement about behaviours that may or may not…

[flagged]

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#78

Post by kaffekaka »

b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #53
apical_dendrite wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's shamelessness. Shame exists to keep us from engaging in antisocial behavior. If your true self is a liar, a cheat, a cruel person, then you should absolutely be afraid to be your true self.

That's still authenticity though. What's not authentic is people who conceal those aspects of themselves, and it's also far more dangerous.

What is ones "authentic" self is an illusion. Playing loud crap music on the public transport is not "my authentic self", it is an impulse that I should perhaps just suppress instead.

Referring to an "autentic self" does not excuse all kinds of behavior. There exists expressions of some kind of authentic self, sure, but so many things people do are just carelessness or disregard and not actually important to who they are.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#79

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #66
b_e_n_t_o_n wrote: post #39

It's not shamelessness, it's authenticity. In today's curated, hyperreal society people desperately crave imperfections, cracks in the armour, they want something real , something human. They desire vulnerability, in part because it gives them courage to also be vulnerable, to not be afraid of judgement and rejection, and the freedom to be themselves. And I think it's actionable advice for all of us. Be genuine, be v…

Let's take an example: people who play music/video aloud on public transport. In Ye Olden Days of the last century, this would be a shameful act, and people would be shamed for doing it. In our enlightened modern times, people don't give a shit, and trying to shame them into not doing it is pointless. They are shameless about their selfishness, and apparently that's OK now. With the result, as others have said, that…

70–90% of people have functional object impermanence, and at least 50% have no inner dialogue

no self awareness, no reflection. just impulse. me, me, me.

blasting music in public, talking at max volume, slamming doors. taking 20 mins to use an ATM when it takes me 30 seconds. and so on.

Re: Shamelessness as a strategy (2019)

#80

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I kind of hated this essay. Not because I really disagree with the conclusions, but it seems to lump all forms of "shamelessness" into the same bucket. I'm fine with "shamelessness" if it's just bucking societal norms and conventions that have often been there so long that we've forgotten what they were ever about in the first place. But I find it deeply, deeply sad when we see so much shamelessness these days that is fundamentally about treating other people like shit because you like the feeling of selfishness.

I also disagree how the author essentially defined "success" as some sort of follower count. I can't remember how I saw this clip, but it was about Lance Bass' wedding to his boyfriend, and he was talking about it with the Kardashian mom. All the Kardashian mom wanted to know about were what the ratings were for their televised wedding, because that's all that mattered to her. I mean, if that's how you want to be "successful", knock yourself the fuck out. I happen to think it's disgusting and the actual opposite of "success", but what do I know, I actually value my relationships for the people I get to know and care about.

Maybe I would like this essay better if it were titled "psychopathy as a strategy". Psychopathy certainly works, at least from the perspective of the psychopath, but it's not exactly something I want to aspire to.

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