The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code • Hacker News Board

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#71

Post by olliesaunders » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 1:53 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #65

bitwize wrote: post #64

Step 1 in learning to code: 10 PRINT "COCKS" 20 GOTO 10 Step 2 in learning to code: 10 INPUT "How many cocks do you want",C 20 FOR I = 1 TO C 30 PRINT "8===========D" 40 NEXT I I'm not recommending that your first steps into programming be in BASIC, or involve cocks. (On both accounts I would recommend the exact inverse.) But this is how a million programmers got started: useless programs that amused us. Never, ever,…

I totally disagree. I can't stand tutorials or classes that present useless stuff as exercises. It's so much easier to work on something that you can at least imagine would have some value. And it is much, much easier to work on something that you think is either cool or have always wanted to build, etc. Also, 1/2 a downgrade for the lame, childish example.

Your standard for the importance of things being useful might be slightly out of perspective when you consider the main goal here is to learn: when you first start programming it doesn’t matter what the program does just as long as it did something, you understood it, and you can build on that knowledge to the next thing. That’s why we start with Hello World.

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#72

Post by novaleaf » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 3:42 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #65

bitwize wrote: post #64

Step 1 in learning to code: 10 PRINT "COCKS" 20 GOTO 10 Step 2 in learning to code: 10 INPUT "How many cocks do you want",C 20 FOR I = 1 TO C 30 PRINT "8===========D" 40 NEXT I I'm not recommending that your first steps into programming be in BASIC, or involve cocks. (On both accounts I would recommend the exact inverse.) But this is how a million programmers got started: useless programs that amused us. Never, ever,…

I totally disagree. I can't stand tutorials or classes that present useless stuff as exercises. It's so much easier to work on something that you can at least imagine would have some value. And it is much, much easier to work on something that you think is either cool or have always wanted to build, etc. Also, 1/2 a downgrade for the lame, childish example.

coding lame, childish "examples" are great to get people interested in learning to code.

they provide immediate gratification in terms that non-developers find humorous. which is a great way to spark interest.

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#73

Post by KirinDave » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 3:43 AM UTC

suneel0101 wrote: post #68

KirinDave wrote: post #66

If you have been starting to write code and study code for a year, you are still learning to code. You have not learned to code, you are not even a journeyman yet. I've been in the industry about 9 years, and coding since I was a child. My parents caught me staying up late with a flashlight under the covers as a teenager reading books on C instead of nudie mags. My first program with an event-driven UI ran on a NeXT…

Absolutely right, there's no end to it. What I hope the reader will achieve is the basic ability to prototype their ideas. That's where I am. In no way do I think I've learned all there is to code. Every day I'm learning precisely how little I know. Heck, I just started learning Lisp and truly enjoying how unfamiliar and powerful functional programming can be.

"Heck, I just started learning Lisp and truly enjoying how unfamiliar and powerful functional programming can be."

Try Haskell before you have too many preconceptions of what "should" be to burn away. :)

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#74

Post by zecho » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 4:45 AM UTC

jemka wrote: post #33

asolove wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. You didn't learn to talk by studying rhetoric. You imitated sounds and words that people made around you. Then you started being able to express your own ideas. Then, maybe, you learned how to say things well. It's the same with computers. While some people may enjoy learning deductively about abstractions like algorithms and paradigms, studies have shown that most people learn inductively, by having some…

Human speech is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be grammar and spelling, which would make OP's argument stronger. The very argument you disagree with. Truth is, you first learn the basics of speech communication. You understand sounds come from your mouth and given a specific cadence and tone you can form words to get what you want. This is no different than understanding the basic principals of computer progra…

I find both of these analogies inadequate.

Spend more time around young children. They most definitely do not learn grammar before they can communicate. It is not a linear thing at all. People pick up parts of grammar like the Subject Verb Object syntax as they learn to mimmic diction and build vocabulary. They're constantly "wrong" and need to be corrected. With persistence and practice and, most importantly, interest, we acquire taste and style.

Communication is very much a trial and error kind of learning that is holistic rather than linear. "Learn x, then do y" versus "do y, then learn x" is a false dichotomy.

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#75

Post by andrewflnr » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 6:23 AM UTC

deveac wrote: post #20

crisnoble wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Awesome! I have been trying the same sort of thing and documenting it here: http://mksht.crisnoble.com I was inspired by: http://mroosendaal.prosite.com/628/612/work/msced and http://designitcodeit.com/ Plus Mig Reyes's quote "Just make a bunch of shit" or the more eloquent way that Ira Glass put it "the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week you will finish…

It is funny. I was talking to a kid that was learning to play guitar because he wanted to play cover songs, and was frustrated by the lessons that seemed to have nothing to do with what he wanted. I told him that he didn't have to wait even one more day, since playing covers songs is one of the best ways in which you learn guitar . His ultimate goal could be accomplished almost immediately by choosing one song he lik…

I learned piano in a similar way. It was a lot of fun, and allows me to play some songs passably, but I still feel hobbled by not knowing certain basic techniques that I would have learned sooner in a more conventional set of lessons. Maybe it comes after the "project" type learning, but at some point, to move up, you have to learn the boring basics.

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#76

Post by lhnn » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 6:33 AM UTC

To Generalize (for web):

HTML/CSS/JS (View)

jQuery (View Framework, couldhave been YUI, for example)

Programming language

Framework in said language

I still think actual SQL / DB knowledge is requisite to do all but the most minor of apps, but he is specifically trying to get people from being overwhelmed.

I'm struggling with Play!, because I need to know HTML/CSS/Java/Scala subset (templates)/EBean ORM/the massive library that is Play.

Just a simple app touches on so many libraries and helper functions, it's hard to get a grasp of what's going on. I don't even build a form anymore, I build a form-ish object that I pass to the controller that fills in data to the ORM that inserts stuff into the database. o_O

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#77

Post by eitland » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 7:59 AM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #66

If you have been starting to write code and study code for a year, you are still learning to code. You have not learned to code, you are not even a journeyman yet. I've been in the industry about 9 years, and coding since I was a child. My parents caught me staying up late with a flashlight under the covers as a teenager reading books on C instead of nudie mags. My first program with an event-driven UI ran on a NeXT…

> So you've made your third biggest mistake; you've vastly underestimated what you are in for. You have never "learned" to program, you are "learning."

I am afraid your comment is even more mistaken. Even more it is discouraging in a really bad way. Read carefully and I'll explain. Even if your HN score is 10 times mine.

In my opinion you are creating a false dichotomy between having learned and learning. Someone who has just started to walk/bike etc has still learned to walk/bike. They are by no means near entering Olympics for the next few years but they have made their own life very much simpler and more enjoyable. (Father of small children here.)

Comments like yours are discouraging at least one specific subset of people from doing the one thing that can possibly help them increase their skills, namely use them. I even think that for most people even if they can learn a lot about coding by just reading, reading and immideately applying it is by far a quicker route.

Anecdata: I once told a 16 y.o. intern how to use basic perl and Visual Basic for Applications. After 14 days where he would run his scripts, check, check with his supervisor, fix the code, learn more perl and vba and so on he came back with a report that would have taken weeks to finish by hand. He is now on his last year on a Bachelor with Honors study and this was his first useful program. Still makes me happy.

(By the way, I also started coding at age 12. Having programmed for both $100+ million companies as well as startups I am not one of those struggeling to learn the basics. Anymore, that is : )

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#78

Post by eitland » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 8:05 AM UTC

olliesaunders wrote: post #71

pbreit wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally disagree. I can't stand tutorials or classes that present useless stuff as exercises. It's so much easier to work on something that you can at least imagine would have some value. And it is much, much easier to work on something that you think is either cool or have always wanted to build, etc. Also, 1/2 a downgrade for the lame, childish example.

Your standard for the importance of things being useful might be slightly out of perspective when you consider the main goal here is to learn: when you first start programming it doesn’t matter what the program does just as long as it did something , you understood it, and you can build on that knowledge to the next thing. That’s why we start with Hello World.

Still I think his point is relevant. For a lot of people the fact that something is useful contributes a whole lot to the motivation for learning it.

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#79

Post by pm90 » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 8:15 AM UTC

eitland wrote: post #78

olliesaunders wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your standard for the importance of things being useful might be slightly out of perspective when you consider the main goal here is to learn: when you first start programming it doesn’t matter what the program does just as long as it did something , you understood it, and you can build on that knowledge to the next thing. That’s why we start with Hello World.

Still I think his point is relevant. For a lot of people the fact that something is useful contributes a whole lot to the motivation for learning it.

He said "...useless programs that amused us" I think that everyone missed the "amused us" part. If your program is useless but still does something that you think is amusing, then that is a great feeling

Re: The 2 Biggest Mistakes I Made When Learning to Code

#80

Post by SquareWheel » Sat, Sep 08, 2012, 10:49 AM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #65

bitwize wrote: post #64

Step 1 in learning to code: 10 PRINT "COCKS" 20 GOTO 10 Step 2 in learning to code: 10 INPUT "How many cocks do you want",C 20 FOR I = 1 TO C 30 PRINT "8===========D" 40 NEXT I I'm not recommending that your first steps into programming be in BASIC, or involve cocks. (On both accounts I would recommend the exact inverse.) But this is how a million programmers got started: useless programs that amused us. Never, ever,…

I totally disagree. I can't stand tutorials or classes that present useless stuff as exercises. It's so much easier to work on something that you can at least imagine would have some value. And it is much, much easier to work on something that you think is either cool or have always wanted to build, etc. Also, 1/2 a downgrade for the lame, childish example.

If I'm learning a new language, the very first thing I want to see is Hello World. It lets me see the basic syntax. Introducing a simple variable and if statement comes next. You pretty much have to start here before you can start creating.