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Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

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Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#71

Post by close04 »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #52
layoric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.

What happened in the early 2010s? 1980s widespread adoption of electronic fuel injection - this is generally a good thing, cars become more complex but run better more of the time 1990s widespread adoption of more advanced emissions control systems - for reliability i'd say this is only a backwards step - none of these systems are required to propel the car down the road but many of them can stop a car from driving.…

> What happened in the early 2010s?

I'd say Tesla built a futuristic computer on wheels, with huge screens, always-on internet connectivity, smarter remote features than most other cars, etc. The car itself was exotic enough by being an EV and that drew attention to these other features too. Everyone else started to emulate them for better or worse.

For now these things are modular because it was the cheapest way to build them. If manufacturers get over the hurdle of cost and find a way to have everything more vertically integrated (think Apple) then we'll lose all access to tinker with the hardware which might be a couple of black-box chips, or the software.

This is probably what Apple was trying to sell as a smart car to car manufacturers. They might have dropped those plans to focus in CarPlay and have the phone be that "smart car". Hopefully some brands go the other way and make a dumb car where the brain is entirely the phone but that's handing out a lot of their agency to the phone manufacturer.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#72

Post by [deleted] »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #37
pabs3 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might need security updates for security systems, like immobilisers, keyless entry etc.

I'm happy to manually apply updates for my immobilizer as necessary. Keyless entry is already broken (recent front page) and can't be fixed via update AFAIK at least without leaving behind all current fobs. Given that it's still using a proprietary encryption scheme from the mid 80s it doesn't seem the manufacturers were particularly concerned about security to begin with.

[deleted]

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#73

Post by BlueTemplar »

wickedsight wrote: post #68
01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is tailgating me I just slow down gradually until they get mad and pass

Same. I start driving at a speed that is safe for the distance they're keeping (in stead of what should be the other way around). That is usually quite effective.

That distance is also a function of their speed though.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#74

Post by numpad0 »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #35
zdw wrote: post #2

I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly. Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.

I'm not really worried about a lack of updates to an embedded device provided that it isn't network connected. To me the root of the issue, and also a far more concerning problem in and of itself, is that from what I understand modern vehicles are connected to the mobile network and phone home.

Yeah, security is not a liquid. It won't diminish over time, and can't be added by updating. Updates replace something with something else, in this day and age likely third world outsourced code with vibecoded burning dumpster. Disconnecting the device from networks is basically always a better alternative. I don't understand why that much isn't so obvious to HN readers.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#75

Post by numpad0 »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #52
layoric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.

What happened in the early 2010s? 1980s widespread adoption of electronic fuel injection - this is generally a good thing, cars become more complex but run better more of the time 1990s widespread adoption of more advanced emissions control systems - for reliability i'd say this is only a backwards step - none of these systems are required to propel the car down the road but many of them can stop a car from driving.…

2010s, in software, vertical integration, and digital feudalism? iPhone?

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#76

Post by justforfunhere »

farmdve wrote: post #64
justforfunhere wrote: post #21

I know of some modern vehicles that will not start at all if you go about removing the telematics unit. I am not sure how long will it take before you will not be able to buy a vehicle at all without having to consent to being monitored remotely 24x7, but it will happen sooner than later. And this coming from a developing country. Pretty sure it is much worse in the developed world. I guess the market for second hand…

I am actually fascinated by car electronics. I had heavily modified the software on mine, but it was easier than modern stuff, no encryption of the code, and even the checksum code only triggered a DTC with no consequences. The only module that was encrypted was the main module, but it if you knew the security PIN you could do what you wanted. It was determined by people that if you observed the jitter of the CAN lin…

I am fascinated by what you are saying and would love to read more about it. How did you go about modifying the software of some part of your car.

Having worked in this field, I can confirm that most such parts these days come with chip supported read/write protections for part of flash that contain the code. But even with no protections, I think that being able to modify embedded firmware is a feat in itself.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#77

Post by bayindirh »

mook wrote: post #59
dangus wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the direction that the software is going in. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-nex...

CarPlay Ultra sounds like it's extending it further? That is, it's still essentially VNC† with some data fed from the car and rendered by the phone, but now with multi-monitor support. † it's more complicated than that, but still a dumb framebuffer.

> but still a dumb framebuffer.

Nope. Your car and phone exchanges some info, too. Like serial numbers, some real time telemetry data, etc.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#78

Post by winrid »

zdw wrote: post #2

I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly. Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.

There are plenty of modern options. Most of my vehicles do not get over the wire updates ('12 honda civic, '15 base model Colorado, '17 Spark). Our tiguan does, sadly.

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#79

Post by bayindirh »

waste_monk wrote: post #70
oakstendheim wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish these options would become more common, maybe even similar to the whole ecosystem around old American muscle cars. Pick and choose a (mostly) standardized drive train, standardized battery packs of different capacities and and your electronics to connect everything together.

I thought the issue is more the batteries and weight distribution. That is, EVs usually have the batteries along the length of the chassis to spread the load out, which is not practical to retrofit onto an ICE car. And if you fill the engine bay on an ICE car with battery packs during the conversion, the weight distribution will be extremely uneven and cause trouble with the suspension and related components, poor ha…

> etc.

That "etc." hides "moving the heaviest, most flammable and non-extinguishable part of the drivetrain into a primary crumple zone in front of you" pretty neatly. :D

Re: Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

#80

Post by numpad0 »

general1726 wrote: post #50
martin_a wrote: post #48

> Somewhat related, an easy early fix was to disable the car's microphone in the headliner light assembly. This (and maybe the things he does further on) would probably interfer with the eCall system that is mandatory for cars in Europe. The author seems to be in the US so that might be fine, but if you're in Europe, please don't do stuff like this.

eCall is sending GPS location after the crash, microphone is not necessary.

The law text might appear to allow other interpretation as laws always do, but I believe the actual implementation is a phone with power input, an electronic report trigger API, a mechanical 911 button, and optional SIM. They come with a mic and a speaker.
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