Whose ethics? Do we get to know what the axioms of this ethics are? How about questions to ethical dilemmas?
Or are "ethics" being used to shroud bias, and used as a distraction and a way to be unquestionable?
AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
71–80 of 130 posts
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#72The problem with AI ethics, safety and to a smaller extent, privacy groups is that the priority of the work/message is not placed on the practicality of solving the problem, or i.e. calculating improving affordability of food/housing, but is placed,as evident on this article too, on the lack of "governance structures". In other words the priority of the work is to get these types of people into positions where they d…
Par for the course. This whole “AI” wave is one massive hype fest chock full of “creative marketing”, where you're hard pressed to find any reliable facts, how would “AI Ethics” even be a thing other than a massively hallucinatory artifact? If there were any ethics to be seen around “AI”, the first order of business would be to stop wasting those ridiculous amounts of energy for some cute parlor tricks.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#73It's hilarious listening to people talk about AI ethics while their bots like perplexity knock my server offline trying to download 50000 files at once. Thank god for cloudflare.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's fair to point out that they were never intended to be a good framework for aligning robots and humans. Even in his own stories they lead to problems. They were created precisely to make the point that encoding these things in rules is hard. As for practical problems they are extremely vague. What counts as harm? Could a robot serve me a burger and fries if that isn't good for my health? By the rules they…
> I think it's fair to point out that they were never intended to be a good framework for aligning robots and humans. Even in his own stories they lead to problems. They were created precisely to make the point that encoding these things in rules is hard. That seems like the biggest point missed here. They're intended to be able to lend themselves to "surprising" conclusions, which is exactly what we don't want, so i…
This seems very much a “did you even read the book??” moment. That Asimov’s laws didn’t work, and indeed failed spectacularly, was kinda the whole point.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big factor in Asimov's laws specifically being sidelined is that the whole process of building AI looks very different from what we pictured back then. Instead of us programming the AIs by feeding it lots of explicit hand-crafted rules/instructions, we're feeding the things with plain data instead, and the resulting behavior is much more black-box, less predictable and less controllable than anticipated. Tr…
Isn't this worse, though? You said it yourself, it's an even blacker black box that nobody truly understands. And we even have an attempt at setting rules for these things akin to Asimov's laws, those "system prompts" that people are fascinated by are testament to that and they tend to be THOUSANDS of statements long (and they're not very good at following them). People often misunderstand Asimov's laws, the entire p…
My point is that past expectations about AI where that it would be possible/most viable to set hard, explicit constraints on behavior, like how a stream of instructions constrains the behavior of a CPU.
There simply IS no explicit definition for "people", "hurt" or "don't" inside an LLM that you could found such hard constraints on.
Note that we never found a way to "program" such constraints into a human mind either, we probably/hopefully never will, and I think that whole approach ("simple, hard deterministic constraints") is just never gonna work for AI; so Asimovs rule framework is just not really applicable.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
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Don't speak for us all. Just because something is difficult to quantify doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about and studying. While I agree that the fields of sociology and psychology have real flaws, implying that we'd be better off if everyone in those fields were flipping burgers is absurd.
It's nothing more than a stereotype, of course, but I know very few who got into engineering "for the philosophy", especially outside of software.
That's why everything engineer course has an ethics section, although the business majors probably need one the most.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#77[dead]
Thanks for sharing. I think it’s really cool what you’re building. I saw the roadmap but curious about when you expect to hit Phase 3 & 4, and what the future looks like for the business (I.e. do you plan to raise $ or future prod expansions)
Thanks for your curiosity and interest. I need to update the Roadmap because it omits the fact that we already trained the model on synthetic data generated from 100% AI enactments (no humans involved) which baked-in the moral critical thinking framework that we had landed on (through lots of thinking and feedback from people over the last two years.) What Phase 4 is about is doing it with human generated data, where our community members participate in the enactments, but to do that we have to have enough users to generate sufficient data for post training. That way it'll be "community-led" training. Phase 3 is simply taking the responsive web app and putting it inside a WebkitView container, but no point in it until we have funding to scale on the backend.
Happy to jump on zoom and discuss the details. We have raised around $100K in "micro investments" via SAFE at a relatively low valuation, and some of the micro-investors are also collaborators on the technical and/or vision/community building side. Myself and Syd have put in a lot more than that into it, but that was the cost of all the experimenting and learning. Microsoft also funded us with Azure credits for $25K, which we used to partially cover the cost of the initial post training.
Happy to chat offline: marc.fawzi on gmail
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big factor in Asimov's laws specifically being sidelined is that the whole process of building AI looks very different from what we pictured back then. Instead of us programming the AIs by feeding it lots of explicit hand-crafted rules/instructions, we're feeding the things with plain data instead, and the resulting behavior is much more black-box, less predictable and less controllable than anticipated. Tr…
> Instead of us programming the AIs by feeding it lots of explicit hand-crafted rules/instructions, we're feeding the things with plain data instead, and the resulting behavior is much more black-box, less predictable and less controllable than anticipated. I dunno, we do feed them lots of explicit hand-crafted rules/instructions, it's just that does don't go into the training process, but instead goes into the "syst…
Yes, but those hand-crafted rules are just input data, they don't actually constrain the behavior, they are just an attempt.
Similarly to how verbal instruction works with a child: You can tell it not to touch the hot stove, but the child still might try.
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't speak for us all. Just because something is difficult to quantify doesn't mean that it's not worth talking about and studying. While I agree that the fields of sociology and psychology have real flaws, implying that we'd be better off if everyone in those fields were flipping burgers is absurd.
It's nothing more than a stereotype, of course, but I know very few who got into engineering "for the philosophy", especially outside of software. That's why everything engineer course has an ethics section, although the business majors probably need one the most.
"Hey look buddy, I'm an engineer. That means I solve problems, not problems like "What is beauty?" Because that would fall within the purview of your conundrums of philosophy."
Re: AI Ethics is being narrowed on purpose, like privacy was
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a big factor in Asimov's laws specifically being sidelined is that the whole process of building AI looks very different from what we pictured back then. Instead of us programming the AIs by feeding it lots of explicit hand-crafted rules/instructions, we're feeding the things with plain data instead, and the resulting behavior is much more black-box, less predictable and less controllable than anticipated. Tr…
All I know is when I asked Grok, Claude, ChatGPT, and Gemini if it believed in the Hogfather, only ChatGPT and Claude said yes. We gotta work on getting the other models to agree.
How about the Shaved Yak?