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EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

cointelegraph.com

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Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#71

Post by p0w3n3d »

myrmidon wrote: post #36
izzydata wrote: post #10

I assume this is just a police state overreach rather than genuine intent to stop crime. They must know that anyone actually engaging in criminal activity is going to not be caught by this because they use other forms of encrypted communication.

I'm not saying that this is NOT police state overreach, but the assumption that all (or even most) criminals practice good operational security still seems laughable to me. I think you are letting your ideological alignment (against surveillance state) push you into irrational standpoints ("more surveillance would not catch additional criminals"). I'm 100% with you on opposing legislation like this, but it is very im…

They meant, I assume, that it's the same as gun control laws. You have to prove your permission, you have to show your id, you gave to have a gun that is registered, however unidentified gangsters are running right now with unregistered guns and shooting people.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#72

Post by 9rx »

10298373 wrote: post #55
9rx wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the existence of the csam itself necessitates abuse. Just as the existence of America as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes. But we're not going to watch over your shoulder to make sure you don't participate in American society and send you to jail if you do. As unfortunate as past damage is, life moves on. Of course, that it incentivizes production of more CSAM is the logic behind th…

> Just as the existence of America as we know it necessitates the pillaging and raping of native tribes. But we're not going to watch over your shoulder to make sure you don't participate in American society and send you to jail if you do. As unfortunate as past damage is, life moves on. There is a significant difference in that you can choose not to consume CSAM. Most Americans don't get to choose not to participate…

> Most Americans don't get to choose not to participate in American society.

Most Americans don't participate in American society, other than maybe voting, and even then a significant number of them still don't.

> I would argue that the better solution is to keep the CSAM laws we have—maybe make them harsher, even

And I would be trillionaire, but I guess won't bother... The original comment asked for that argument. If you don't want to provide, I get it. You are under no obligation to do so. But what is the point of saying you would do it without actually doing it? If you don't want to provide why make up a fake story when you can just as easily be honest about it or say nothing at all?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#73

Post by potato3732842 »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #62
amarcheschi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the people I know - and I live in eu - are not knowledgeable about these topics. Furthermore, I've never heard about this in one of the main news channels, so I guess that most people don't even know about it

There's this "I have nothing to hide" sentiment followed by blind trusts into officials, their intentions and their alleged protection. I.e. people are scares of terrorism and would like it to stop, so they hope the terrorists will be found by spying. At least in countries where the terrorism emerged recently, I'd say...

Being "scared of terrorism" is perfectly legitimate even if not underpinned by statistics.

The conversion from that to "so therefore the .gov ought to have powers that amount turnkey ability to violate human rights on a whim" is the problem.

Any "well actually terrorists aren't that big a deal" discussion only serves to bog things down in the weeds and direct blame away from bad people who believe bad things.

Replace terrorism with whatever the cause of the day is, drugs, satanic cults, tax evasion, etc, etc all you want, doesn't change anything. There are people who believe (though they'll rarely admit it when you lay it so bare) that you can take something that is flagrantly bad in its base or default form (like for example letting the government just read everyone's personal communication by default) and think that the fact that because it can be applied toward noble ends then it is a power the .gov ought to have access to by default.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#74

Post by thmsths »

johndhi wrote: post #51

Can someone explain how the same group of countries can simultaneously issue book-long regulations about how everyone needs to respect privacy to the nth degree, and run around the world trying to force others to do the same, yet also propose these kinds of things?

This is government 101. We tend to see governments as one big singular entity, this is rarely the case (and this especially true for a supra national organization like the EU with no real head of state). Instead you have different institutions with different goals that sometimes contradict each other. Then you have to account for multiple factions in those some institutions and you end up with what we currently have. The idea is that on the long run, if you average out the decisions/rules/regulation it is somewhat cohesive and leads to "good" governance.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#75

Post by johannes1234321 »

efitz wrote: post #44

Do citizens in the EU actually want this? If not, how are EU politicians so disconnected from their citizens? How did this state of affairs come to be? Is it reversible? In the US, our politicians don’t diverge quite as much, but when they do, the reason is money, and when it gets bad, we throw the bums out and elect populists. It’s not pretty and it’s messy but it self corrects with the next election if it doesn’t w…

A notable amount of people vote for parties suggesting such ideas.

Demonstrations against are small.

Only few people write to their government and their MEPs.

This is probably sourced in not understanding it and not having enough information, but for as long as those three factors remain those are the results of democracy.

(Democracy in the EU is complex topic in itself, as EU isn't a state, but a union of independent states where states are primarily represented by their government and the directly elected parliament plays a smaller role ... but given the little protest that's the smaller issue in this case)

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#76

Post by potato3732842 »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #71
myrmidon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that this is NOT police state overreach, but the assumption that all (or even most) criminals practice good operational security still seems laughable to me. I think you are letting your ideological alignment (against surveillance state) push you into irrational standpoints ("more surveillance would not catch additional criminals"). I'm 100% with you on opposing legislation like this, but it is very im…

They meant, I assume, that it's the same as gun control laws. You have to prove your permission, you have to show your id, you gave to have a gun that is registered, however unidentified gangsters are running right now with unregistered guns and shooting people.

And then they go and catch the people who didn't do that stupid process and act as though they caught "real criminals" when they only really caught "fake criminals" that they just minted.

You see this all the time with all sorts of areas of law, not just guns. The real evil-doers are the enablers cheering it on. "Well they didn't have a permit so they deserved it" and the like.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#77

Post by hintklb »

efitz wrote: post #44

Do citizens in the EU actually want this? If not, how are EU politicians so disconnected from their citizens? How did this state of affairs come to be? Is it reversible? In the US, our politicians don’t diverge quite as much, but when they do, the reason is money, and when it gets bad, we throw the bums out and elect populists. It’s not pretty and it’s messy but it self corrects with the next election if it doesn’t w…

EU citizens have way too much trust in their government and elected officials. A lot of people here just assume officials act in the interest of the population and most people don't really check or care to understand in detail those type of proposals.

And unlike the US, very few people are going to push back based on "freedom" and "my rights" which is unfortunate in my opinion. This lack of pushback is why those types of proposal even come to be.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#78

Post by dylan604 »

sackfield wrote: post #32

This pops up every few years, and I bet once it gets in it never goes away. It seems asymmetric that one side only has to win once to win permanently while the other side has to win constantly. Is there any mechanism to stop this in the EU and make this kind of legislation explicitly barred?

It's funny to me that in the cops vs robbers scenario, it is the bad guys that have to be perfect to avoid getting caught while the good guys only have to get lucky once to catch the bad guys.

Your use of this then would translate to the governments wanting to read all the mail to constantly stay informed would be the bad guys where the other actors only have to get lucky once by having a mission complete would be the good guys?

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#79

Post by addandsubtract »

integralid wrote: post #8
superkuh wrote: post #5

Seems like all regions of the world all falling into their own particular flavors of authoritarian fascism. EU's better than most but this is absolutely draconian. We all know this won't actually be feasible to implement but the end result of of this infeasibility will be a status quo where everyone is guilty of a crime by default when needed.

As an EU citizen I don't believe chat control will ever happen. We already had mass protests in my country during the last 20 years against internet and population control, and we will again if this becomes close to reality. Maybe I'm delusional and I'll be severely disappointed I'm my country and the EU, but I don't think so. Who knows, time will tell.

I think it's at least time to write your representative. I know I will.

Re: EU proposal to scan all private messages gains momentum

#80

Post by SoftTalker »

johndhi wrote: post #51

Can someone explain how the same group of countries can simultaneously issue book-long regulations about how everyone needs to respect privacy to the nth degree, and run around the world trying to force others to do the same, yet also propose these kinds of things?

Same reason US Congress usually exempts itself from the laws it passes.

Rules for thee but not for me. You can bet the MPs private messages will not be included.

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