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Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

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Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#71
post #3

The fucked up thing is how they are enforcing archaic puritan ideals on the whole world. Acting as self appointed global censors. (Eg. not allowing adult games on Steam or Itch.io) The most confusing thing for me is why. I have read a few theories, but nothing convincing. What could be a strong enough motivator to do such a bizarre thing? Also we need governments to keep them in line. We cant have private corps actin…

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Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#72
post #44
post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

People always cite the first-order benefits of this regulation but don't look into anything else. To be clear, I haven't either but what I would look for is: - are real prices cheaper for consumers? - is economic activity higher or lower (i.e. maybe credit cards encourage purchases?) - does making credit cards a less lucrative business lower credit card penetration? - is lowering credit card penetration, particularly…

and along the same lines, how good is the fraud prevention, detection, and recovery?

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#73
post #44
post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

People always cite the first-order benefits of this regulation but don't look into anything else. To be clear, I haven't either but what I would look for is: - are real prices cheaper for consumers? - is economic activity higher or lower (i.e. maybe credit cards encourage purchases?) - does making credit cards a less lucrative business lower credit card penetration? - is lowering credit card penetration, particularly…

I think that there's very little reason to suspect that a rent-seeking middle man getting a bigger piece of the pie is in any way good for the efficiency of the value transfer system, first order or not. You're kind of crab-walking around making a point here.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#74
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's only a very recent change, and not universally rolled out. for decades shops charged ~£3 "connection fee" for paying by credit card, no matter the purchase amount, and many still (probably illegally) enforce a minimum spend if paying by credit or debit card. like when paying or withdrawing money abroad, it's just a lottery as to the "fees" you'll be charged not because there are such fees, but because someone…

Visa and Mastercard have a net profit margin in the order of 50%. Do you think that's justified for the service they're providing, and is indicative of a healthy market/competition?

It's indicative of a healthy bankroll to fund superPACs and that's what matters!

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#75
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just your bank giving back some (but not all) of those 2+% interchange fees. Basically, in EU you have low fees, so credit cards are boring, they offer almost zero perks (because there's no money to finance those). No one really cares about what brand of card they get, only about their credit limit. In the US you are charged high fees on every purchase, and then the bank uses your own money to bribe you, or en…

>That's just your bank giving back some (but not all) of those 2% interchange fees. On the contrary, for someone like me who pays off my balances each month, if I get 2% back for every transaction, I am breaking even on those fees if assuming that I pay 100% of the fees, which of course isn't true; the merchant pays some of that. So really, I come out slightly ahead. For something like the Amex I mentioned with its 5…

When the 'merchant pays those fees' how do you suppose they are paying them? I will give you a hint for free: it's not a special bank account that says 'definitely not paid for by my customers' on it.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#76
post #48
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there information on EU vs US credit limits? How do the account fees compare between EU and US?

>Is there information on EU vs US credit limits? I would be very interested in this as well. My understanding is that cashback cards of the type we have everywhere in the US (e.g. Amazon Amex = 5% back on Amazon purchases, Wells Fargo Active Cash = 2% back on everything) don't exist elsewhere. Another example: I just earned $1000 from Chase Sapphire as a new customer bonus for diverting $5K of the spending I would do…

That's a card with a $800 annual fee... And the Amazon Amex requires a Prime membership, so you are paying at least $140/year for that card.

Credit card companies aren't stupid, they offer a few loss leaders but they make it annoying and time-consuming to come out ahead. And most of the big perks are one-time only, they have gotten much better at banning "churners".

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#77
post #30

Speaking as someone who tried (and failed) to build a competitor, merchants don’t actually care about the fees. We built a mobile payment system using bank transfer rails (ACH debits and FedNow credits) for ecom platforms. QR payments, just like AliPay, but for the US. We studied past failures at this same idea, and targeted specifically high ticket items (jewelry, luxury), because the fees are a bigger problem, and…

AliPay, WeChat Pay, and PayPay succeed because they don’t target this market at all — they target cashed based transactions and provide cash-equivalents. The whole reason why people use them in Asia is because people could use cash but it’s inconvenient to collect and store. These are far and above lower value transactions where fees are important but not as important as simply existing.

I think QR payments can exist in the US if they do the same things that happen in asia: you charge via cash and the balance is stored with the provider. There aren’t any ACH transactions to reverse. If you allow charging with ACH you only cover a small amount and you control risk accordingly.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#78
post #34

Brazil central bank introduced Pix a few years ago. It took over the country as the public basic infrastructure for money transfer. Totally free and instantaneous transactions between people and companies, available to all banks. Then, just last week, the US presidency launched an investigation considering Pix an unfair trade practice against the US. Actions like that may show the current direction of the US governme…

My understanding is that Pix took over because the Brazilian gov did transfer payments during covid and the (only?) way to get those payments was via Pix. So it forced everyone to start using it. And once people had more familiarity with Pix, merchants started pushing for it because it charges ACH level fees. The chargeback system (MED) is only so-so right now, but expected to get better. There is a lot to like about…

Pix blew other kinds of bank transfer out of the water. TED, DOC, Boleto, were slow and expensive. Pix is instant, free for most people, and just works.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#79
I’ve always wondered how that is even really possible, especially today … ignoring the likely bribery, aka lobbying. For example, in Germany there is something called an EC patent network (there are others in different European countries), they process what are effectively debit card payments like would be done on the visa network. I do not see a reason other than corruption and maybe lack of an initiative, for all of Europe to e.g., put all of Visa, MC, Amex, etc out of business by having a universally payment processing network standard for all payment types. It is effectively nothing different than the BPE and Mint making currency, why could the government not have a universal payment processing system for all transactions in America?

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#80
post #61
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Pix took over because the Brazilian gov did transfer payments during covid and the (only?) way to get those payments was via Pix. So it forced everyone to start using it. And once people had more familiarity with Pix, merchants started pushing for it because it charges ACH level fees. The chargeback system (MED) is only so-so right now, but expected to get better. There is a lot to like about…

No, the Central Bank of Brazil did not force any person to start using Pix. Also, care to elaborate why you think the spec is complicated and hard to implement?

Coerce is likely a better word.

Pix and OpenFinance are extremely chatty APIs with a ton of rules. Being a merchant using the ecosystem is not that bad, but trying to be a participant in the network is complicated.

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