Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

nhpr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 445 posts

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#71

Post by giantg2 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #13
jleyank wrote: post #2

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

It makes no difference if there is a round in the chamber unless there is a fundamental design flaw. The P320 is apparently a rare case of this. This is extremely mature technology. People have been churning out defect-free designs for many decades. It is surprising that a company with the engineering experience and pedigree of SIG Sauer would design something with this issue. It would be like if Airbus designed a pl…

"The P320 is apparently a rare case of this."

Not that rare. Gen 1 and 2 Glocks had slam fires (that's right, "Safe Action" Glocks... the irony). The XDS had doubles or slam fires. I'm sure there were others, and now the P320.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#72

Post by giantg2 »

Filmatic wrote: post #49
OJFord wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what's the reason for USAF personnel to conceal carry on a USAF base? Article doesn't even suggest it was.

Military personnel generally can’t carry at all on post/base without a specific need. Nor keep private firearms at home, if on base/post housing. This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely.

"This policy should tell you something about the actual cost/benefit of private arms as far as overall safety goes. Cuts through the noise and hypotheticals rather nicely."

Yes, most people will feel quite safe in a secured facility with controlled access, simialar to court houses. Imagine living in a place where everyone has been vetted and the perimeter is secured with armed guards.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#73

Post by giantg2 »

more_corn wrote: post #67

The problems with the civilian version (the 320) are well documented (by law enforcement officers and the civilian community) and there appears to be a root cause and solution. (Not an expert but replaced trigger group?)

There are still reports of the issue occurring with the upgraded FCU. All the military ones should already have the upgraded FCU.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#74

Post by giantg2 »

nosignono wrote: post #15
nabla9 wrote: post #4

Since all services have adopted it, idiot proofing should be the main feature of the gun because it will be carried with idiots all the time and casualties accumulate.

This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.

"The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk."

If they can prove this in the investigation, this completely sinks Sig's defense that this can't happen with the upgraded FCU that they released to supposedly fix this issue since it's in all military variants.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#76

Post by kgermino »

giantg2 wrote: post #64
kstrauser wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I know about this situation is what I've read in these comments just now. I don't have a dog in this hunt. But I think the surprise is that a company who makes something considered highly reliable would make a similar item that the Air Force claims is killing their airmen. It'd be like Toyota making another pickup, the Bellevue, that likes to randomly explode. Sure, things happen, but Toyota ? Huh, that would be…

Ford made the Pinto. The Volt or Bolt from GM had battery fires. I believe Tesla has had multiple safety and quality issues come up.

May be my age, but I wouldn't say any of those brands are a mark of quality. Rather the opposite in fact.

They are all interesting in their own way (especially Tesla), but certainly not quality/reliability-first organizations.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#77

Post by [deleted] »

darkteflon wrote: post #53

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose…

[deleted]

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#78

Post by chasd00 »

tshaddox wrote: post #14
hollywood_court wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit…

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

I don’t conceal carry but it’s commonly known that you don’t draw your weapon unless you’re shooting to kill. In those situations, if there was time to chamber a round then there was time to escape. If you draw your weapon as a warning or, worse, fire warning shots you’ll be arrested for brandishing at least.

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#79

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dcrazy wrote: post #26
nosignono wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.

I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately. A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.

> the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys)

The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)

Re: Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

#80

Post by fmbb »

nosignono wrote: post #27
tshaddox wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.

When you draw from concealment, an experienced shooter needs only get their grip and an eye picture -- point gun at target and fire. You only need to train muscle memory to get into a firing position, which is also what you are regularly training every time you live fire or dry fire. If you don't have a round chambered, you need to draw, rack and release the slide, hope a round is properly chambered (in a panicked si…

I’m a panicked position maybe you should not fire a gun.

If you cannot even chamber a round who’s to say you can hit what you want to hit?

Post reply on HN