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Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

nytimes.com

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Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#71

Post by 001sky »

Jd wrote: post #66
001sky wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analysis is not wrong. The UCI/The Tour DeFrance, Lance Armstrong were just as bad. You highlight lots of good issues (including - other people making money off it regardless of who wins, the act of not doping was arguably dangerous, given the exertion levels of the pack, etc). The conclusion of this section is fine I'd also agree with (It is true). But ultimately you fail to provide a framework for analysis. Yo…

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with contemporary doping scandals to offer programmatic advice on what can be done about them, except to say that in my view here too we are probably at the cusp of major shift in a massive historical trend. This trend I suspect will end with 'doping' being considered the norm not only among athletes but among the general population, and the chemicals used will be seen as an gen…

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with...

You want to "fix" the problem?...

My own approach is always...

This is pretty common failure avoidance technique.

But it lacks ambition.

Imagine a father or a mother with a newborn infant, "Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with...changing nappies" so I just won't bother. The kid cries "You want to "fix" the problem?..." The kid cries. "My own approach is always to fit the solution to the problem in such a way that the optimal outcome (i.e. reduction of abuses in the short and long-term) is achieved." The kid cries.

Is that being a responsible Adult? The kid might ask. I dunno. Not my kid. Anyway, who gives a shit about the kid? The kid is kind of fucking annoying.

Maybe that's just the world we live in.

But the difference between an Adult and a Child, is that the Adult doesn't have the luxury of being the Child.

Somebody has to clean up the Shit.

Maybe the kid has a point?

Good writing should be convincing, certainly, but it should be convincing because you got the right answers, not because you did a good job of arguing.

http://paulgraham.com/essay.html

In other words, the point of thinking is to solve, not to display thought.

Same as for the Harvard students.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#72

Post by patmcguire »

tomjen3 wrote: post #55
patmcguire wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

80% of kids at elite schools come through the same kind of feeder system of either good local public schools or private schools. In that system there's a series of successively narrower hoops you have to jump through - if there's only one junior high that teaches math beyond a certain point and not everyone can go there, those kids are going to be better prepared for the high school that teaches more advanced things,…

The Atlantic had a really interesting article about the kinds of kids who goes to an elite school (although it was Princeton) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-orga... . Fair disclaimer, the article is over a decade old.

It's the best description I've seen. That's how I remember everyone when I started school, but everyone got a lot more cynical after the 2008 crisis. People still do the same things, though - the attitude is that even if the ladder might not be there when you get to the top, it's still the only one around.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#73

Post by Jd »

001sky wrote: post #71
Jd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with contemporary doping scandals to offer programmatic advice on what can be done about them, except to say that in my view here too we are probably at the cusp of major shift in a massive historical trend. This trend I suspect will end with 'doping' being considered the norm not only among athletes but among the general population, and the chemicals used will be seen as an gen…

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with... You want to "fix" the problem?... My own approach is always... This is pretty common failure avoidance technique. But it lacks ambition. Imagine a father or a mother with a newborn infant, "Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with...changing nappies" so I just won't bother. The kid cries "You want to "fix" the problem?..." The kid cries. "My own approach is always to…

Fine, but I think you generally have be familiar with the problem domain to devise the optimal solution. I am in a good position to change the diapers or punish my own child. Not quite so for someone else's, particularly if they are not in my own geographic vicinity.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#74

Post by [deleted] »

001sky wrote: post #71
Jd wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with contemporary doping scandals to offer programmatic advice on what can be done about them, except to say that in my view here too we are probably at the cusp of major shift in a massive historical trend. This trend I suspect will end with 'doping' being considered the norm not only among athletes but among the general population, and the chemicals used will be seen as an gen…

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with... You want to "fix" the problem?... My own approach is always... This is pretty common failure avoidance technique. But it lacks ambition. Imagine a father or a mother with a newborn infant, "Unfortunately, I'm not familiar enough with...changing nappies" so I just won't bother. The kid cries "You want to "fix" the problem?..." The kid cries. "My own approach is always to…

[deleted]

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#75

Post by wisty »

gizmo wrote: post #16

Most people here are saying that the students were clearly in the wrong. "Lack intellectual curiosity and character". "spoiled children". I don't agree at all. Aside from the formal rules, smart people pick up on which rules can be broken safely. In fact, knowing which rules in life you should break and which rules you should follow is probably a critical factor for success in life. Jaywalking is illegal in most (all…

One of these things is not like the other.

Yes, there are things which are culturally acceptable, but technically against the rules. Just because you get away with murder, and don't get caught, that doesn't mean murder is OK.

It's quite clear that plagiarism was badly enforced, but anyone who admitted to it would have been severely punished. Most of your examples are completely different - they are things that nobody cares about, even if you get caught.

Arguably, it's a terrible system if severe crimes are routinely left unpunished. Either the penalty should be lowered, or they should enforce it better.

So while I don't just blame the students, I think it's a sign that the system is fucked. The students are part of it, as are the lectures, and universities (do they fire lecturers who don't try to catch cheats, the same way they fire unpopular lecturers?), employers (perhaps they should test graduates to see if they are actually competent?), and society in general.

Re: Harvard Students in Cheating Scandal Say Collaboration Was Accepted

#76

Post by tomjen3 »

patmcguire wrote: post #72
tomjen3 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Atlantic had a really interesting article about the kinds of kids who goes to an elite school (although it was Princeton) http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/the-orga... . Fair disclaimer, the article is over a decade old.

It's the best description I've seen. That's how I remember everyone when I started school, but everyone got a lot more cynical after the 2008 crisis. People still do the same things, though - the attitude is that even if the ladder might not be there when you get to the top, it's still the only one around.

That is what happens when you don't read pgs articles (in this case http://paulgraham.com/ladder.html).
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