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AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

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Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. But my only requirement is that we pre-register what evidence will change your mind. Fair?

The study should tackle these questions in one form or another: 1. What specific, measurable phenomenon would constitute 'discomfort with uncomfortable truths' versus legitimate methodological concerns? 2. How would we distinguish between the two empirically? I'd expect a study or numerical analysis with at least n > 1000, and p I'm not sure what kinds of data this result could be derived from, but the methods for ge…

Thanks. I understand what happened here. This is a critical discussion paper and you're making the category error of judging it by the rubric of scientific epistemology.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study should tackle these questions in one form or another: 1. What specific, measurable phenomenon would constitute 'discomfort with uncomfortable truths' versus legitimate methodological concerns? 2. How would we distinguish between the two empirically? I'd expect a study or numerical analysis with at least n > 1000, and p I'm not sure what kinds of data this result could be derived from, but the methods for ge…

Thanks. I understand what happened here. This is a critical discussion paper and you're making the category error of judging it by the rubric of scientific epistemology.

[dead]

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The study should tackle these questions in one form or another: 1. What specific, measurable phenomenon would constitute 'discomfort with uncomfortable truths' versus legitimate methodological concerns? 2. How would we distinguish between the two empirically? I'd expect a study or numerical analysis with at least n > 1000, and p I'm not sure what kinds of data this result could be derived from, but the methods for ge…

Thanks. I understand what happened here. This is a critical discussion paper and you're making the category error of judging it by the rubric of scientific epistemology.

Wait... You made a specific, falsifiable, and causal scientific claim based on your sociology experience:

> HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths

I'm asking for actual scientific evidence of it. We're not talking about the paper (although the exact same issues are present there too). It's not a category error when a specific and falsifiable causal claim about reality is being made.

Critical theory doesn't get a "free pass" - if there's no actual evidence, nor repeatability, quite literally all it is doing is grievance airing in an academic tone. While philosophically interesting, nothing of scientific value is being added.

And this is exactly what I mean when I say Sociology lacks evidence and intellectual rigour. It'll make big claims about reality ("resistance to sociology is due to being confronted with uncomfortable truths"). And then when pressed for reasonable evidence to back it up all there is is hand wringing and justifications about critical theory and epistemology.

I'm sorry but, no, you don't get to make sweeping claims about reality as though you're an -ology, and not do any of the ground work to be respected as an -ology. This is exactly why sociology is laughed out of scientific circles such as HN - maybe it has nothing to do with "uncomfortable truths" and everything to do with a complete lack of physical, repeatable evidence.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If effort wasn’t put into it, then the writing cannot be good, except by accident or theft or else it is not your writing. If you want to court me, don’t ask Cyrano de Bergerac to write poetry and pass it off as your own.

> If effort wasn’t put into it, then the writing cannot be good This is what people used to say about photography versus painting. > pass it off as your own. This is misleading/fraud and a separate subject than the quality of the writing.

Well, with regard photography that is a lazy point. It is both true and not true, and also irrelevant. Artistic photography takes a lot of effort, training, and taste. But using an iPhone to take an arbitrary picture does not. I don’t value photography that takes no effort, just as you don’t. Ultimately, photography is recording data— light that traveled to the camera. AI writing is regurgitating someone else’s data.

When you use GenAI to produce work, it is to a significant extent not your own work. If you call it your own work then you are committing fraud to some degree. You are obscuring your own contribution. This is not separate from quality, since authorship is a fundamental aspect of quality.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I understand what happened here. This is a critical discussion paper and you're making the category error of judging it by the rubric of scientific epistemology.

Wait... You made a specific, falsifiable, and causal scientific claim based on your sociology experience: > HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths I'm asking for actual scientific evidence of it. We're not talking about the paper (although the exact same issues are present there too). It's not a category error when a specific and falsifiable causal claim a…

There are more epistemologies in the world than just the scientific. Trying to universalize one leads to category errors like this.

Honestly, the tone policing and boundary policing here aren’t very scientific. You can’t have it both ways. Either commit to the epistemology argument fully, or not at all, but you've set up a heads I win, tails you lose set of rules when it comes to epistemic choice.

It is hard to escape how this fits back into the original topic - dismissal re-enforces epistemological status - one that places yours at the top. I’m sure you’re aware of this dynamic playing out in this very discussion.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse us for expecting evidence and intellectual rigour. :D I've taken a number of university Sociology courses and from those experiences I came to the opinion that Sociology's current iteration is really just grievance airing in an academic tone. It doesn't really justify it's own existence outside of being a Buzzfeed for academics. I'm not even talking about slightly more rigorous subjects such as Psychology or P…

My exposure to Sociology and Psychology at university made me understand that HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths. It's easier to discount sociology than deal with these truths. I get it. I used to be that way too.

Is one of those uncomfortable truths the fact that for our society to make substantial sustainable progress will require the dismantling of a vast structure of oppression that current has a firm grip on our society?

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... You made a specific, falsifiable, and causal scientific claim based on your sociology experience: > HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths I'm asking for actual scientific evidence of it. We're not talking about the paper (although the exact same issues are present there too). It's not a category error when a specific and falsifiable causal claim a…

There are more epistemologies in the world than just the scientific. Trying to universalize one leads to category errors like this. Honestly, the tone policing and boundary policing here aren’t very scientific. You can’t have it both ways. Either commit to the epistemology argument fully, or not at all, but you've set up a heads I win, tails you lose set of rules when it comes to epistemic choice. It is hard to escap…

You made a specific claim about human behaviour. Either defend it with evidence or admit you were speculating. The philosophy of science lecture doesn't change that.

You can't say "HN's resistance stems from psychological discomfort" (empirical claim) and then retreat to "there are multiple epistemologies" (relativist defence) when challenged. You're held to the epistemic standards your claim invokes.

If you'd made a claim like "Critical theory suggests that HN's resistance stems from psychological discomfort" I'd have a lot less to say. It still suffers from the same evidence issues but at least you're being clear it isn't a scientific claim - so you wouldn't be getting pressed for scientific evidence.

> There are more epistemologies in the world than just the scientific.

Yes, different epistemologies have different domains, boundaries, and use cases (sometimes they overlap too). This is why scientific analysis is useless for literature - and why literary analysis is useless for science.

This is just like how you can't do brain surgery with a jackhammer, and you can't dig concrete with a scalpel. Statistical analysis on poetry is nonsensical, and no one would accept a literary analysis on quantum mechanics as physics.

Different tools are fit for different purposes.

> the tone policing and boundary policing here aren’t very scientific

I'm not tone policing, I'm holding you to the scientific standard after you made a scientific claim. Calling standards enforcement "tone policing" is just another way to avoid accountability.

"Boundary policing" in science isn't some arbitrary gatekeeping - it's essential intellectual hygiene. Good science is acutely aware of:

- What methods can and cannot establish

- The scope and limits of findings

- When they're stepping outside their domain of expertise

- The difference between correlation and causation

- What constitutes sufficient evidence for different types of claims

This is why we have concepts like:

- Statistical power and confidence intervals

- Replication requirements

- Peer review processes

- Methodological limitations sections in papers

This boundary distinction is the entire foundation of reliable knowledge production.

> you've set up a heads I win, tails you lose set of rules when it comes to epistemic choice.

You did this to yourself when you made a scientific claim without scientific evidence. It's not my fault when I point out you built your argument on epistemic quicksand.

You want to make truth claims with scientific authority while escaping scientific accountability.

> I’m sure you’re aware of this dynamic playing out in this very discussion.

Yes it's meta, your original claim still requires evidence though.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#78

Sarkar argues that “AI shaming arises from a class anxiety induced in middle class knowledge workers, and is a form of boundary work to maintain class solidarity and limit mobility into knowledge work.” I think there is at least some truth to this. Another possible cause of AI shaming is that reading AI writing feels like a waste of time. If the author didn’t bother to write it, why should I bother to read it and pro…

This latter piece is something I am struggling with. I have spent 10+ years working on teams that are primarily composed of people whose first language is not English in workplaces where English is the mandated business language. Ever since the earliest LLMs started appearing, the written communication of non-native speakers has become a lot clearer from a grammatical point of view, but also a lot more florid and pre…

ask them to add "brief polite" to their translation prompt.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the author didn’t bother to write it, why should I bother to read it There is an argument that luxury stuff is valuable because typically it's hand made, and in a sense, what you are buying is not the item itself, but the untold hours "wasted" creating that item for your own exclusive use. In a sense "renting a slave" - you have control over another human's time, and this is a power trip. You have expressed it p…

If effort wasn’t put into it, then the writing cannot be good, except by accident or theft or else it is not your writing. If you want to court me, don’t ask Cyrano de Bergerac to write poetry and pass it off as your own.

i don't think your coworkers are trying to court you...
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