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Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

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Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#71

Post by owebmaster »

eddythompson80 wrote: post #63
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

> Our PMs don't like making things opt-in. Whenever people on HN and else where present you the mustache twirling evil Microsoft or Apple or Google C-suite/board who are trying to enshitificate a product or a tool because they don’t care, always keep in mind that the reality is often a lot more mundane than that. The application that is “sneakily” listening to you and transmitting everything you say to their servers…

No Eddy, this simpleton scenario of yours is not more likely to be true than the evil scenario where the evil tech company invades users privacy and collect data it wasn't directly allowed for an extra profit.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#72

Post by eddythompson80 »

owebmaster wrote: post #71
eddythompson80 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Our PMs don't like making things opt-in. Whenever people on HN and else where present you the mustache twirling evil Microsoft or Apple or Google C-suite/board who are trying to enshitificate a product or a tool because they don’t care, always keep in mind that the reality is often a lot more mundane than that. The application that is “sneakily” listening to you and transmitting everything you say to their servers…

No Eddy, this simpleton scenario of yours is not more likely to be true than the evil scenario where the evil tech company invades users privacy and collect data it wasn't directly allowed for an extra profit.

I admit I haven’t been in any of the mustash twirling meetings. They probably happen, but I have also been in the room with engineers and PMs discussing solving problems with analytics attribution to user.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#73

Post by threetonesun »

FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #58
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

Make a pop-up with the opt-in/out for all the features on first launch with everything defaulted to on so people can turn features off and get notified that such features exist. You can also use this to gather metrics on what features people are actually interested in. Good compromise.

Nothing makes me not want to use software more than it asking questions about how I want to use the software before I've used the software.

Runner up is the "what's new" tutorial overlays.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#74

Post by thih9 »

meindnoch wrote: post #66
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

>Our PMs don't like making things opt-in Then refuse implementing it. Have some dignity for God's sake.

Depending on the company culture, this may not be allowed. As in: PMs will ask another dev to implement it; if this happens more often then they will replace you.

Also, searching for dignity in a post-“don’t be evil” startup environment seems unusual.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#75

Post by d4mi3n »

meindnoch wrote: post #66
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

>Our PMs don't like making things opt-in Then refuse implementing it. Have some dignity for God's sake.

While I agree with your sentiment, I'll note that ethics are hard to hold when it's your livelihood on the line.

Expecting a shift in corporate culture to come from a short list of individuals making great personal sacrifice (of their careers, reputations, whatever) is not reasonable, sustainable, or realistic.

I know there are a lot of folks who abhor regulation in many contexts, but stuff like this is most effectively handled by such mechanisms.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#76

Post by crysin »

meindnoch wrote: post #66
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

>Our PMs don't like making things opt-in Then refuse implementing it. Have some dignity for God's sake.

And then what, be out out of a job because you were insubordinate? If you have the personal wealth and security to lose your job and possibly not have a new opportunity for the next year or so, then that's great. Not everyone has that security, and a roof over their head just may be more important than personal convictions about how to treat users.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#77

Post by jdvh »

bschne wrote: post #20
untech wrote: post #10

I’ve come to hate Notion with passion because of its abysmal performance, but I still pay for it for my small business. My non-technical employees use it as a database for clients, tasks, payments etc. I tried to research replacements several times, and still haven’t found anything good. Sometimes I wonder if I should build my own.

Most intriguing thing in that vein I've seen: https://thymer.com (haven't used it, am not affiliated, just looked promising in a demo video esp. on performance grounds)

Hey thanks for mentioning us!

With Thymer we really care about performance, but Thymer is also end-to-end encrypted because we don't want to compromise on privacy. And it's real-time collaborative and offline first.

Thymer has optional self-hosting. Then you can upgrade (or not) at your own leisure, or intentionally stick to an older version you like better. Enshittification is a big problem in our industry. We've all been burned by it -- we certainly have -- and being able to opt out of a "new and improved!" version is a real feature.

Thymer will also be very extensible. Today we launched our plugin SDK: https://thymer.com/plugins and https://github.com/thymerapp/thymer-plugin-sdk/ with a bunch of examples. With Thymer you will be able to "vibe code" the very simple plugins and with VSCode/Cursor you can make more complex plugins with hot-reload.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#78

Post by fiddlerwoaroof »

sturza wrote: post #64
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

Your PMs should not decide what your software does with my hardware without me giving my informed consent. Our PMs don't like making things opt-in. -> Your users don't like making things opt-out. Low usage metrics is a UX problem. Activating it without informed consent gives you bloated metrics anyway.

It’s just not true that users don’t like making things opt-out. HN Users tend not to like it but I think a lot of users dislike the alternatives: either because they’re undiscoverable (toggle in settings or a menu) or intrusive (various sorts of what’s new overlays). Imo, the question of when to make things opt-in vs. opt-out is fairly subtle and largely depends on the feature and pre-existing trust.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#79

Post by callalex »

meindnoch wrote: post #66
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

>Our PMs don't like making things opt-in Then refuse implementing it. Have some dignity for God's sake.

Having that kind of power as an implementer requires the backing of a union.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#80

Post by falcor84 »

threetonesun wrote: post #73
FuriouslyAdrift wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make a pop-up with the opt-in/out for all the features on first launch with everything defaulted to on so people can turn features off and get notified that such features exist. You can also use this to gather metrics on what features people are actually interested in. Good compromise.

Nothing makes me not want to use software more than it asking questions about how I want to use the software before I've used the software. Runner up is the "what's new" tutorial overlays.

Well, I suppose everyone is different. The first thing I do after launching a new software is inspect its options, and if it doesn't have a good range of tunable options, there's a good chance I'll immediately abandon it. So I actually really love the recent trend in video games putting you into the options at the start.
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