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How and where will agents ship software?

instantdb.com

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Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#71

Post by chamomeal »

xnx wrote: post #7
CartwheelLinux wrote: post #3

I'm saving all of these articles for the next time we go through the "AI (LLMs) is going to change the world," cycle. The systems we use can only be as smart and intuitive as the people who prompt them. On top of it, this (LLMs) is not AI, not even close, if anything they are glorified prediction systems that require human prompting.

> On top of it, this (LLMs) is not AI, not even close, Do you think that the LLM/AI tools today are better than those from 2 years ago? Do you think the LLM/AI tools in 2 years time will be no better than the ones we have today?

Personally I hope they stop getting better. It’s been cool and fun but it’s just starting to freak me out a little lol

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#72

Post by mieubrisse »

stopachka wrote: post #48
stillpointlab wrote: post #42

This is a massive business opportunity for whoever owns the market. I have a friend who owns a small/medium sized marketing firm. They typically manage social media and advertising for local businesses (butchers, plumbers, NPOs, etc.). A major cost center for them is dev. They can generally handle developing assets (images, videos, text copy) and publishing them (Facebook, YouTube, Instagram) but if they need any kin…

It has been really interesting to see how non-technical people use agents. My girlfriend shipped a full-stack on the app store [1]. She was only familiar with basic HTML. Now she's building out an inspiration tracker that has file uploads, weekly todos, search, categories. There's a lot more ideas and people who would love to put in effort to give to the world, then there are expert programmers to build them. [1] htt…

I'm super into this idea. Programmers (us) used to be gatekeepers... and that's less true now. It means my salary goes down, but also means that the world is going to build more, cooler stuff quicker.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#73

Post by csomar »

jen729w wrote: post #41

Please don’t use a vibe-coded app for anything important. I use Claude. I like Claude. But I’ve backed away from having Claude actually write my code other than in the most limited circumstances. I caught it copying one of my TS Interfaces, for example. And modifying, then using, the copy. So my type-checks pass, yay! But wait what? It wrote a test for a tricky bit of code. The test wouldn’t pass. So it re-wrote it i…

You need to develop an intuition to it, the same kind of intuition you developed for systems we work with. For example, your test issue: start by writing tests before making the implementation. LLMs are quite capable but they are not AGI. If your pipeline is good they can produce solid results.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#74

Post by soco »

soulofmischief wrote: post #40
proxy9 wrote: post #36

Fun software but the only issue with Instant is their pricing. Once they gain adoption, I expect them to significantly raise their rates, I can seen them charging over $1 per GB easily. And like with any vendor lock-in, you’re stuck paying whatever they decide to charge. Observe with caution I'd say

Vendor lock-in from vibe-coded apps is going to be brutal. It's an all-out turf war. But hey, rewriting the plethora of vibe-coded long tail* apps might be a major source of employment in the future. * small but loyal and profitable userbases

Why lock-in? The interface is just a conversation and the non-programmer won't know whether it's InstantDB or whatever else in the background, as that's the whole point of vibe coding. I can only see issues taking out your data into another system, but even that can be vibe coded (can it?)

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#75

Post by javcasas »

chamomeal wrote: post #70
jen729w wrote: post #41

Please don’t use a vibe-coded app for anything important. I use Claude. I like Claude. But I’ve backed away from having Claude actually write my code other than in the most limited circumstances. I caught it copying one of my TS Interfaces, for example. And modifying, then using, the copy. So my type-checks pass, yay! But wait what? It wrote a test for a tricky bit of code. The test wouldn’t pass. So it re-wrote it i…

Copilot is also WAY too eager to pass tests. It will write tests to pass a completely broken function. We have aggressively high coverage requirements at work, but also really terrible tooling/support for good tests, so everybody uses copilot. The result is a paper-thin test suite that only tests the implementation and none of the intended behavior. It’s so clunky and the tests are so mock-ridden that the only way to…

I always despised how much MS tries to lock you into their toolset.

> so everybody uses copilot ... the only way to make sense of them… is by using copilot

I see nothing has changed in the age of AI.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#76

Post by stopachka »

mieubrisse wrote: post #72
stopachka wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been really interesting to see how non-technical people use agents. My girlfriend shipped a full-stack on the app store [1]. She was only familiar with basic HTML. Now she's building out an inspiration tracker that has file uploads, weekly todos, search, categories. There's a lot more ideas and people who would love to put in effort to give to the world, then there are expert programmers to build them. [1] htt…

I'm super into this idea. Programmers (us) used to be gatekeepers... and that's less true now. It means my salary goes down, but also means that the world is going to build more, cooler stuff quicker.

> the world is going to build more, cooler stuff quicker.

Absolutely

> It means my salary goes down

We may find ourselves surprised. It's true that some part of our skills will no longer be valuable, but I wouldn't be surprised if other parts became 10x more valuable.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#77

Post by stopachka »

stillpointlab wrote: post #58
stopachka wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been really interesting to see how non-technical people use agents. My girlfriend shipped a full-stack on the app store [1]. She was only familiar with basic HTML. Now she's building out an inspiration tracker that has file uploads, weekly todos, search, categories. There's a lot more ideas and people who would love to put in effort to give to the world, then there are expert programmers to build them. [1] htt…

Congrats to your girlfriend! Actually shipping their own app is a feat that many programmers never achieve, instead spending their entire lives working on projects for others. I'm going to jump on this to think aloud about the unlock this ability gives the world for customized apps. My neighbor is a landscaper and he is constantly complaining to me about invoicing software. He has gone through 10+ apps trying to find…

> As more and more LLM-ready building blocks emerge, custom software may become the norm rather than the exception.

Heck yeah. This would be a very cool world to live in.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#78

Post by stillpointlab »

imiric wrote: post #59
stillpointlab wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't his firm be better served by website builders like WordPress, Squarespace, Wix, etc My understanding is the majority of his work is on WordPress. It's worth noting this is a partnership with 100+ clients, 5+ full time employees. They do television commercials, websites, banner ads, social media campaigns, etc. He is a partner at the firm and while he calls himself "non-technical" he does have experience wi…

> Vibe coding is opening up a new avenue for custom built functionality that was previously too expensive. I'm not debating that. What I am arguing for is for using these new tools smartly and conservatively, because they have and will continue to produce low quality software in hands of inexperienced developers. It's easy to be misled by their confident tone and the overhyped marketing around them into thinking that…

> Instead of engaging with this argument

What argument? You are expressing vague feelings of concern and stating incorrect assumptions. I can't change how you feel and those feelings are valid. They are certainly motivating your reasoning and leading you to the incorrect assumptions.

You are stating conclusions (e.g. "He will deliver a seemingly working site to his customers with security issues and bugs, and it will only be a matter of time for them to be exploited.") as if you have a crystal ball and then demanding that I defend this figment of your imagination.

> What I am arguing for is for using these new tools smartly and conservatively

You've moved the goalpost here. You said "These issues could be mitigated or avoided by hiring an experienced developer." Now you are back peddling, suggesting you actually meant to say we should use the tools "smartly and conservatively".

So how about you state yourself clearly: Can non-programmers use these tools "smartly and conservatively". And if so, why do you assume the friend I mentioned in question, someone who has been in the business for decades hiring for and delivering software, is incapable of doing so. And if not, provide an actual argument to that effect.

Re: How and where will agents ship software?

#79

Post by stillpointlab »

Exoristos wrote: post #61
stillpointlab wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment isn't rude, but it is a bit close to concern trolling. (as in, "the action or practice of disingenuously expressing concern about an issue in order to undermine or derail genuine discussion.") "Won't somebody think of the local plumbers website!" There is an assumption being made here that isn't being made explicit: the only way that malicious behavior can be avoided is by paying a programmer. Is that a…

> There is an assumption being made here that isn't being made explicit: the only way that malicious behavior can be avoided is by paying a programmer. Is that a valid assumption? As far as anyone knows: yes. Why would that surprise you? The "only way" architecture can be certified hurricane-proof is by "paying" an engineering agency. That's why such professions were developed.

I see you chose to respond to my weaker argument and ignore the second: "A plugin is less secure if developed by a coding agent when compared to any possible programmer. Is that a valid assumption? Aren't all of the well-known issues in WordPress plugins the fault of programmers?"

You are also conflating professional engineering, a licensed profession requiring insurance, etc. with software "engineering". You don't want to admit that the quality of "engineering" that is available on Upwork or in the average contract software developer is likely as bad, in fact, probably worse than the latest crop of LLMs.

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