Live data from Hacker News

American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

bigthink.com

71–80 of 129 posts

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#71
post #43

Americans getting a crash course in how white supremacy destroys itself. Did you know: Slavery was so profitable, it sprouted more millionaires per capita in the Mississippi River valley than anywhere in the nation. Look at them now. https://www.history.com/articles/slavery-profitable-southern...

The parallel isn’t perfect.

But the deep irrationality driving artificial opportunistic ideological divides (this time less raw white supremacy, but still a lot of xenophobia, party loyalty propaganda, cult of personality, and fear and backlash with respect to minorities), drives sub-cultures like lemmings, off the cliff of reality. Taking the rest of us with them.

Obvious even as it becomes unstoppable.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where that money is going, but from my own experience, research at universities really isn't supported by tuition money. At least in STEM, PhD students are paid for by grants and contracts that their advisors secured from sources like NSF, DARPA, NIH, NSA, etc. Those are the people actually execute the research. You might want to say tuition should support research, but the reality is that it doesn't.

Why would we want tuition to support research?

I think the cynical student paying tuition in America would ask what the money is actually paying for and why it can’t cover the full cost of programs and research given that it’s so high.

Let’s say you go to Ohio State. The out of state (unsubsidized) tuition comes out to about $37,000 for full time tuition. That’s around 108 hours of instruction per year by my estimation.

Students are paying $342 per lecture hour, which means each professor is bringing in between $3000-30,000 per hour.

Sure they have to grade papers but…come on, right?

How is this not wildly profitable?

This does not include room and board, which has to be even more wildly profitable. Imagine being able to charge $1200 a month for a shared room with no kitchen or private bathroom with some cafeteria slop as included food.

I finished a formal university degree recently and probably only 1/4 of my professors were actually actively decent and all the lessons were heavily recycled copy paste jobs that get passed around the department.

Online school makes this an even worse value since the professor just grades electronic work and spends one hour a week on chat hours, with the rest of the lectures being pre-recorded or pre-written.

To be clear, I personally believe the government of wealthy nations should fully cover the cost of higher education to anyone who wants it because it’s a no-brainer obvious investment that pay off in positive societal ROI. My commentary simply concerns the status quo where costs are high despite subsidy and endowments still existing.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#73
post #20

> Many of the most valuable scientific organizations in the world, including NOAA, NASA, the NSF, the CDC, the EPA, and the FDA, I don’t dismiss the premise of the article and I think it is a shame how these organizations are being impacted, but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

Then I have trouble believing you understand how cutting-edge research happens, because these organizations are the ones who fund it. The missing piece here is DOE Office of Science, but they're coming for that too.

you ever worked with DOE office of science or anyone at the national renewable energy labs? not the brightest lightbulbs out there.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#74
post #11

I don't clearly see how a massive exodus of American scientists moving abroad could happen. While I understand that young scientists might find it easier to relocate, the decision becomes significantly far more complicated for couples, even when both partners are scientists. For other countries or regions to become truly competitive, they would also need to increase their investment in science significantly [1]. [1]…

I agree with this analysis; it would be hard for American scientists with spouses and children to relocate. However, there’s another thing to consider: the amount of researchers from grad students all the way to tenured professors and senior industry researchers who are not American citizens who moved to America for their careers.

The following is anecdotal and I don’t have any statistics. When I was a PhD student at UC Santa Cruz, roughly half of my classmates were foreigners, many from mainland China and India, but also from Iran, South Korea, Greece, Uruguay, and Mexico, to name a few. My first advisor was a German who became a naturalized American citizen, and while roughly half of my professors were native-born Americans, I also had professors from China, Ireland, Greece, Singapore, and Argentina. During my time in industry in Silicon Valley as a researcher, I’ve worked with many people who grew up abroad and moved to the United States for grad school.

The biggest issue I see with a brain drain in America isn’t necessarily Americans going abroad, since it would be a major sacrifice giving up family and friends to move to a place with an unfamiliar language and culture. The problem I see is when immigrants to America who have already made those sacrifices end up leaving America, either to return to their countries of origin or to different countries. If a significant number of immigrant scientists leave America, this will be a tremendous blow to American science, and this may also be a boon to countries that are willing and able to hire these talented people.

China, for example, has the money to fund science at levels competitive with the United States. I don’t foresee a lot of Americans moving to China, partly due to the language barrier, and also partly due to China’s political system. However, what if Chinese researchers in the United States return to China en masse? This is not good for us, though it would be great for China.

These are scary times in America.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#75
post #55

The value destruction is mind blowing. The fact that it’s deliberate I just can’t wrap my head around.

[flagged]

I cannot for the life of me think of what you are referring to.

If it’s COVID-related mandates like vaccines and lockdowns, then surely it’s obvious that NASA had nothing to do with that?

There is no single issue that I can see linking all of these science organizations together. Even if it’s about budget, there are bigger targets.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#76

> Many of the most valuable scientific organizations in the world, including NOAA, NASA, the NSF, the CDC, the EPA, and the FDA, I don’t dismiss the premise of the article and I think it is a shame how these organizations are being impacted, but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch.

> but I don’t know that these are the best exemplars of cutting edge science being shut down that will lead to America’s downfall from its scientific perch Most of these agencies do some foundational science but maybe more importantly they collect lots of boring data. Boring data they give out to researchers for free. They also hand out grants which might not be lottery tickets but they pay for boring stuff. The curr…

NIST and NOAA collect boring data, the rest not really so much.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#77
post #55

The value destruction is mind blowing. The fact that it’s deliberate I just can’t wrap my head around.

[flagged]

The echo chambers of social media donthat to us. The fewer interactions we have with those holding opposing viewpoints the more difficult it becomes to rationalize their views as anything but malicious. In that spirit can you explain what you mean? From my perspective it looks like the attack on academia that always occurs during populist coups. I don't doubt that biased science is done out pf greed, but I would need exceptional evidence that it was the norm, or even common enough to warrant this. Healthcare workers including doctors are leaving now too. This all mirrors what was seen in Hungary andany places before that.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#78
post #56

Are institutions elsewhere massively increasing funding and positions? Aren't all the non-bankruptible tuition fees providing plenty of funding already? Where's that money going? The football team?

AFAIK the massive influx of cash into universities for the last 30 years or so has gone into administration, which is basically a jobs program, not academics.

I believe that's tuition. Grants fund scientists research directly. It funds labs, hires grad students, etc

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#79
This has definitely been my feeling too as a fresh postdoc. For a while it has been feeling more and more like the US isn't worth the effort and stress.

Sure, I make more money here, but is it worth dealing with nonsensical immigration policies, haphazard funding cuts, crumbling infrastructure, completely random rulemaking, and demoralized colleagues facing severe and nonsensical budget cuts when various other countries with a good standard of living and competitive research labs make immigration very easy for skilled people like scientists?

It isn't specifically a Trump thing, but he's certainly proving to be the straw that broke the camel's back, and it's likely I'll go elsewhere once my postdoc appointment ends.

I can imagine that the decision is even easier for people from countries like China. Why deal with the stress of the government suddenly deciding that you aren't allowed to work at your institution anymore regardless of track record or background, (many chinese colleagues have been worried about the proposed legislation and it comes up often), when you can work at a similarly cutting edge institution back home? You just have to determine if the US being less authoritarian on certain things is valuable enough to put up with the awful treatment through the long immigration process.

Re: American science to soon face its largest brain drain in history

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an example showing that institutions elsewhere are actually responding to this (a question asked by the parent post), and Norway will very likely not be alone here.

Yeah I just mentioned Norway since I'm Norwegian. Other EU countries are doing similar, like France[1]. [1]: https://www.politico.eu/article/meet-first-academic-refugees...

100M NOK is a 1% increase to Norway's annual research budget, but to replace what the current US administration is asking Congress to cut the whole of Europe would have to raise its funding level by 300-400%.
Post reply on HN