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Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

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Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#71
post #31

I run a mature software company that is being driven for profit (we are out of the fantastic future phase and solidly in the “make money” phase). Even with all the pressure to cut costs and increase automation, the most valuable use of LLMs is to make the software developers work more effectively, producing the feature improvements that customers want so that we can ensure customers will renew and upgrade. And to the…

> the most valuable use of LLMs is to make the software developers work more effectively

Which means you should need fewer of them, no?

> It can be the same people that were doing the low-level jobs; they just now can spend their human-level intelligence doing more interesting and challenging work.

Why were you using capable humans on lower level work in the first place? Wouldn't you use cheaper and less skilled workers (entry level) for that work?

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#72
post #10
post #8

It's not AI. We are in a recession caused by fear and instability. Tech may just be dying in general. This could finally be the collapse we have been waiting for. While the US was allowing capitalists to hoard all of the USs excess capital, China was facilitating the development of important industries via central planning. Look at Intel. The owning class has become so greedy and incompetent. They aren't even running…

stupid government is the root cause - and government is chosen by voters and does what voters want it to do. China is monarchy and monarchs listen to no one.

Even a dictator needs the (implicit) consent of at least some of the people to stay in power. You can't do everything by yourself.

However I agree that democracies around the globe mostly work, in the sense that voters get what they are voting for.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#73
post #43

Okay. It also coincides with the end of the post-pandemic hiring boom and the UK bank rate going from 0.1% to 5.25%. It's kind of funny that reliable data analysis has never been part of the AI hype when you consider that AI is used for data analysis.

> It also coincides with the end of the post-pandemic hiring boom and the UK bank rate going from 0.1% to 5.25%. I agree that the former is a strong signal. However the latter doesn't tell you anything without further context: did interest rates go up, because the economy was strong, or did rising interest rates dampen the economy? (It's similar to how you can't tell how hot it is in my apartment, purely from looking…

In this case it was widely publicised that interest rates went up to try to bring inflation down (which was significantly above the 2% target).

Growth was weak to unremarkable although the hiring market was good for job seekers at the time shortly before the interest rises were introduced.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#74
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, many people complain about pay inequality. Compressing scales is the opposite of that, so should be welcomed?

Most of those people aren’t working in highly-paid disciplines like high tech. Generally those disciplines necessarily have wider spreads. I am perfectly fine with this. If I suddenly have to think really hard at my job all day and do terribly if I’m undersea and still get paid the same or less, I will be left pretty bitter.

Wouldn't AI mean you have to think less hard than before?

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#75

This is a combo of high interest rates and the insane IRS tax rules related to R&D expenses for software companies. If companies can’t hire people to build the product they can’t afford to invest in entry level people to push it.

The IRS doesn’t have much influence on the U.K. jobs market.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#76
post #23
post #9

I think it is possible that the widespread introduction of ChatGPT will cause a brief hiatus on hiring due to the inelasticity of demand. For the sake of argument , imagine that ChatGPT makes your average developer 4x more productive. It will take a while before the expectation becomes that 4x more work is delivered. That 4x more work is scheduled in sprints. That 4x more features are developed. That 4x more projects…

I am not asking this as a gotcha, but a genuine curiosity for you or other people who find AI is helping them in terms of multiples. What is your workflow like? Where do you lean on AI vs not? Is it agentic stuff is tab by cursor? I find AI helpful but no where near a multiplier in my day to day development experience. Converting a csv to json or vis-versa great, but AI writing code for me has been less helpful. Beyo…

Don’t ask the agent to do something complex. Break it down into 10 manageable steps. You are the tester and verifier of each step.

What you will find is that the agent is much more successful in this regard.

The LLM has certain intrinsic abilities that match us and like us it cannot actually code 10,000 lines of code and have everything working in one go. It does better when you develop incrementally and verify each increment. The smaller the increments the better it performs.

Unfortunately the chain of thought process doesn’t really do this. It can come up with steps, sometimes the steps are too big and it almost never properly verifies things are working after each increment. That’s why you have to put yourself in the loop here.

Like allowing the computer to run test and verify an application works as expected on each step and to even come up with what verification means is a bit of what’s missing here and I think although this part isn’t automated yet, it can easily be automated where humans become less and less involved and distance themselves into a more and more supervisory role.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#77
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It also coincides with the end of the post-pandemic hiring boom and the UK bank rate going from 0.1% to 5.25%. I agree that the former is a strong signal. However the latter doesn't tell you anything without further context: did interest rates go up, because the economy was strong, or did rising interest rates dampen the economy? (It's similar to how you can't tell how hot it is in my apartment, purely from looking…

In this case it was widely publicised that interest rates went up to try to bring inflation down (which was significantly above the 2% target). Growth was weak to unremarkable although the hiring market was good for job seekers at the time shortly before the interest rises were introduced.

Yes, if you bring in more context interest rates can be enlightening. But by themselves they are almost useless information.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#78
My thoughts about AI:

1. For business stakeholders, they are motivated to find ways to use AI to achieve whatever they want, because business requests are always ASAP and they don't want to wait for downstream software engineers to do the job. This has always been the case since the start of the computing business, I believe. (Maybe not the case during the mainframe/supercomputing era as the "business" sometimes are engineers themselves so it's easier to communicate)

2. Many software engineering jobs are not that technically challenging. For example Frontend, Data engineering, etc. A lot of time is spent on requirement clarification and collecting. Business might eventually figure out that the best way to use AI is NOT to make AI adapt to humans, but to make humans to adapt to AI. I'm pretty confident that if we have an integrated AI and the business stakeholders can ask questions in a way that AI can understand, 80% of my job (as a DE) could be done by AI. But it requires feeding data into AI and training the business stakeholders to use it properly. TBF, a lot of my work COULD be solved by automation, but we never had the time to properly automate the data pipelines.

3. Whatever the outcome, junior software developers are having and are going to have to a tough time. Unless they work in some low level system programming positions, they have to prove that they are MUCH better than AI to justify for a hire. Nowadays companies expect senior developers to use AI to enhance their productivity, so juniors need to learn that too to catch up -- but they also need to learn to program without AI to actually obtain the knowledge properly.

4. AI is going to impact every field, not just programming. Office work is the first to get impacted, and then blue collars too. Unions and governments are going to hold for a while, maybe a long while, but as long as there is one major player (China for example) that is pushing for AI advancement, the others HAVE to follow suite, or they run the risk of losing everything. The Russo-Ukraine war and Israel-Iran war are the bells that toll for all of us, and the existence crisis brought upon all of us by the increasing numbers of hot wars are going to make everyone push for productivity, whether in production or killing.

5. If we can't figure out how to make the world a bit more fair and happier for the average people (you and me) because AI really takes off, a dark dystopian future awaits us. Good luck. We might have some 10-20 years to achieve that.

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#79
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes sense to me. There's another post on the front page right now talking about shortening the work week (I haven't read it yet tbf, so I could be wrong about it's content) because of AI. People have been talking about shorter work weeks for a long time now, it just doesn't happen. What does happen is we get more done and the GDP goes even higher.

“Shortening the workweek” sounds pretty bad… some people will suggest literally anything before higher wages.

I think that in countries with longer workweeks, that would be an incredible thing. There was recently a story about Denmark raising the retirement age to 70. If you graduate college at 22 and work the average number of hours until age 70 in Denmark, that's the same as working until 59 in the US and 52 in Mexico. Shorter workweeks will almost certainly translate into longer careers.

(https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/hours-worked.html Mexico 2226 hours/week, US 1804, Denmark 1394)

Re: Entry-level jobs down by a third since launch of ChatGPT

#80
post #31

I run a mature software company that is being driven for profit (we are out of the fantastic future phase and solidly in the “make money” phase). Even with all the pressure to cut costs and increase automation, the most valuable use of LLMs is to make the software developers work more effectively, producing the feature improvements that customers want so that we can ensure customers will renew and upgrade. And to the…

> the most valuable use of LLMs is to make the software developers work more effectively Which means you should need fewer of them, no? > It can be the same people that were doing the low-level jobs; they just now can spend their human-level intelligence doing more interesting and challenging work. Why were you using capable humans on lower level work in the first place? Wouldn't you use cheaper and less skilled work…

Has the improved effectiveness of computers or software led you to need fewer of them?
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