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Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

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Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#71
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the 10x, 20x, or whatever increases in profit from all the AI "productivity"? Typing is not the challenging aspect of writing code. Writing boilerplate faster isn't the super power that a lot of non-technical people seem to think it is.

"it handles the boilerplate!" Has always been the weirdest argument about most things. Like, sure...so does a library. That's why we have libraries. (Or at the extreme end, this is what something like C++ templates were for).

Libraries and frameworks remove some boilerplate but there's still tons of it. It's rare a library exposes a single doTheThingINeed() function that runs a business. Everyone needs boring but domain specific code.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#72
> FUTURE GENERATION WILL HAVE HIGHER PRODUCTIVITY INGRAINED AS A EVOLUTIONARY TRAIT IN THEM

If we're lucky, future generations will not have to think about productivity at all. For so long we've been in this mode where more is better: Make the economy go brrr and good things happen by proxy.

If AI can handle the brrr, then maybe we can start being a bit more thoughtful about which direction our efforts are steering it in, about whose dreams we're making come true and whether they're any good.

If so, then the valuable skill is going to be the ability to chart a course to where people want to be, and to be believed when you say you can get us there from here. Letting AI handle most of the middle steps does not strike me as the path to that credibility--that's not a leader, that's just the hype guy.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#73
> Going forward, I won’t be hiring for languages, I’ll hire devs who can solve problems, no matter the stack.

Ah, there it is. Every time I see one of these posts, it's by someone who isn't actually a developer. It's always some gleeful executive type salivating over how much money he thinks this will save him.

I suppose we'll have to suffer a wave of these idiots firing their engineering staff and crashing their companies before they learn their lesson.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#74

I'm doing a reasonable size project with Claude Code doing almost all of the programming, and it's quite challenging. Vibe coding is easy and fast, but you end up not being an expert in the code base or really having any idea about it. And once it reaches a certain size, the LLM isn't an expert on it either. It is only an expert on cleanly isolated sections of it, which, by the way, it's really bad at producing witho…

I spent the last two months "vibe coding". I really think VC as it is defined (keep smashing the accept button and let the LLM eventually "get there") is terrible. My flow has been to use Claude code for an incredibly amazing code gen where:

1. I know exactly what I want architecturally

2. I know how I want it

In this mode the flow is then about validating the code to make sure it is my "image" frequently rather than me dreading not know what rube Goldberg machine it generated after 10s or Ks of lines.

Sometimes I even let it get "close" (ie it took care of all the nitty gritty) and I take over and finish the interesting bits then tell CC what I did and why to update the project memory. Frequent checkpointing and sprinkling .md files with latest understanding is very important (it also has the advantage of making your code llm-portable).

I think the biggest irony is PMs, VPs, CEO had traditional been pretty derisive of "clean code" and yet clean code is absolutely essential to make vibe coding work. Feels like a huge vindication.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#75

I'm doing a reasonable size project with Claude Code doing almost all of the programming, and it's quite challenging. Vibe coding is easy and fast, but you end up not being an expert in the code base or really having any idea about it. And once it reaches a certain size, the LLM isn't an expert on it either. It is only an expert on cleanly isolated sections of it, which, by the way, it's really bad at producing witho…

I spent the last two months "vibe coding". I really think VC as it is defined (keep smashing the accept button and let the LLM eventually "get there") is terrible. My flow has been to use Claude code for an incredibly amazing code gen where: 1. I know exactly what I want architecturally 2. I know how I want it In this mode the flow is then about validating the code to make sure it is my "image" frequently rather than…

We're on the same page.

And you have to be vigilant, too. You can spend a day or two in full vibe code mode if you really want to ship a bunch of features fast, and they'll all work and it will feel amazing, all while it's secretly shitting all over your codebase, and you won't know it until it's too late. And not in a "oh now you just have to fix it up" way - if you go too long it may be just about as difficult to fix as it would have been to write.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#76

It’s only a feeling, but I’d swear I’ve seen variations on this post across a half a dozen software-adjacent subreddits every day for the last month. The common denominator has always been “Paying $200 for Claude Max is a steal” with absolutely no evidence of what the author did with it. I honestly think we’re being played.

I don't think you're getting played.

I think it's legitimately possible to get something done in a week that used to take 3 months, without realizing that you haven't actually done that.

You might have all the features that would have taken 3 months, but you personally have zero understanding of the code produced. And that code is horrible. The LLM won't be able to take it further, and you won't either.

I think we're seeing people on a high before they've come to understand what they have.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#77
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a different kind of usage pattern recently, which is to find a problem that the LLM is good at, something which is very local in reasoning, and do it at big scale across the whole codebase.

Could you give an example? I like almost know what you mean, but not quite

A big Bay Area data company recently refactored their old JS codebase from var to let and const. It was done at a scale that is way beyond "senior engineer double-checks LLM to see if code is good."

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#78
post #18

Yeah maybe. Talk is cheap, show me the code. > Last week, I did something I’ve put off for 10 years. Built a full production-grade desktop app in 1 week. Fully reviewed. Clean code. Launched builds on Launchpad. UI/UX and performance? Better than most market leaders. ONE. WEEK. I really wonder why people who write these things never actually show these apps they vibe coded in a week that are “better than most market…

> My UML professor said very similar things 25 years ago. Yeah, it feels like a lot of these stories are the new version of the methodology / database / framework hype we've seen for so many years... with our new tool, you can write Reddit / Yelp / Wikipedia / S3 / etc. in a week. Sure, you can write a prototype that kind of replicates the surface level functionality. How about the actual hard part? Things like scali…

I think on it from the perspective that Claude can already replace the majority of methodology zealots because it is intellectually on par with them. (in coding)

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#79

I'm doing a reasonable size project with Claude Code doing almost all of the programming, and it's quite challenging. Vibe coding is easy and fast, but you end up not being an expert in the code base or really having any idea about it. And once it reaches a certain size, the LLM isn't an expert on it either. It is only an expert on cleanly isolated sections of it, which, by the way, it's really bad at producing witho…

I wrote a comment in a similar thread a few weeks ago describing my LLM-coding experience - here's a copy+paste (so any quote replies will be out of context / not actually replying to your comment):

    I'll preface this comment with: I am a recent startup owner (so only dev, which is important) and my entire codebase has been generated via Sonnet (mostly 3.7, now using 4.0). If you actually looked at the work I'm (personally) producing, I guess I'm more of a product-owner/project-manager as I'm really just overseeing the development.

    > I have yet to see an LLM-generated app not collapse under it’s own weight after enough iterations/prompts.

    There's a few crucial steps to make an LLM-generated app maintainable (by the LLM):

    - _have a very, very strong SWE background_; ideally as a "strong" Lead Dev, _this is critical_

    - your entire workflow NEEDS to be centered around LLM-development (or even model-specific):

      - use MCPs wherever possible and make sure they're specifically configured for your project

      - don't write "human" documentation; use rule + reusable prompt files

      - you MUST do this in a *very* granular but specialized way; keep rules/prompts very small (like you would when creating tickets)

      - make sure rules are conditionally applied (using globs); do not auto include anything except your "system rules"

      - use the LLM to generate said prompts and rules; this forces consistency across prompts, very important

      - follow a typical agile workflow (creating epics, tickets, backlogs etc)

      - TESTS TESTS AND MORE TESTS; add automated tools (like linters) EVERYWHERE you can

      - keep your code VERY modular so the LLM can keep a focused context, rules should provide all key context (like the broader architecture); the goal is for your LLM to only need to read or interact with files related to the strict 'current task' scope

      - iterating on code is almost always more difficult than writing it from scratch: provided your code is well architected, no single rewrite should be larger than a regular ticket (if the ticket is too large then it needs to be split up)

    This is off the top of my head so it's pretty broad/messy but I can expand on my points.

    LLM-coding requires a complete overhaul of your workflow so it is tailored specifically to an LLM, not a human, but this is also a massive learning curve (that take's a lot of time to figure out and optimize). Would I bother doing this if I were still working on a team? Probably not, I don't think it would've saved me much time in a "regular" codebase. As a single developer at a startup? This is the only way I've been able to get "other startup-y" work done while also progressing the codebase - the value of being able to do multiple things at a time, let the LLM and intermittently review the output while you get to work on other things.

    The biggest tip I can give: LLMs struggle at "coding like a human" and are much better at "bad-practice" workflows (e.g. throwing away large parts of code in favour of a total rewrite) - let the LLM lead the development process, with the rules/prompts as guardrails, and try stay out of it's way while it works (instead of saying "hey X thing didn't work, go fix that now") - hold its hand but let it experiment before jumping in.

Re: Dev jobs are about to get a hard reset and nobody's ready

#80

It’s only a feeling, but I’d swear I’ve seen variations on this post across a half a dozen software-adjacent subreddits every day for the last month. The common denominator has always been “Paying $200 for Claude Max is a steal” with absolutely no evidence of what the author did with it. I honestly think we’re being played.

4 year old reddit account but active only recently, name ending with 4 digits.
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