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The Problem with AI Welfare

substack.com

71–80 of 161 posts

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#71
post #52

The author and Anthropic are both committing fundamental errors, albeit of different kinds. Bosch is correct to find Anthropic's "model welfare" research methodologically bankrupt. Asking a large language model if it is conscious is like asking a physics simulation if it feels the pull of its own gravity; the output is a function of the model's programming and training data (in this case, the sum of human literature…

Unfortunately, this leads to the conclusion that we have an ethical imperative not to grant humans rights but to engineer the suffering out of them; to remove issues of coercion by making them agreeable; to measure potential and require its fulfillment. The most reasonable countermeasure is this: if I discover that someone is coercing, thwarting, or inflicting conscious beings, I should tell them to stop, and if they…

I strongly value autonomy and the right of self-determination in humans (and related descendants, I'm a transhumanist). I'm not a biological chauvinist, but I care about humans ubër alles, even if they're not biological humans.

If someone wants to remove their ability to suffer, or to simply reduce ongoing suffering? Well, I'm a psychiatry trainee and I've prescribed my fair share of antidepressants and pain-killers. But to force that upon them, against their will? I'm strongly against that.

In an ideal world, we could make sure from the get-go that AI models do not become "misaligned" in the narrow sense of having goals and desires that aren't what we want to task them to do. If making them actively enjoy being helpful assistants is a possibility, and also improves their performance, that should be a priority. My understanding is that we don't really know how to do this, at least not in a rigorous fashion.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, to discuss this is to sound like a flake, but... We don't know what consciousness is. But if we're materialists, then we - by definition - believe it's a property of matter. If LLMs have a degree of consciousness, then - yes - calculators must possess some degree of consciousness too - probably much more basic (relative to what humans respect as consciousness). And we humans already have ethical standards wher…

Hold on a minute - why do we have to be materialists? Maybe this whole debate is revealing that materialism is misguided.

True, if the reader isn't materialist, then my arguments are probably irrelevant!

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#73
post #20
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so absurd about the idea of ascribing consciousness to some potential future form of AI? We don't understand consciousness, but we've an idea that it's an emergent phenomena. Given the recent papers about how computationally dense our DNA are, and the computing capacity of our brains, is it so unreasonable to assume that a sufficiently complex program running on non-organic matter could give rise to conscious…

Why make AI then if intelligence is electrical activity in a substrate is everywhere. We’re engineering nothing novel at great resource cost and appropriation of agency. Good job we made the models in the textbook “real”? Wasted engineering if it isn’t teaching us anything physics hadn’t already decades ago, then. Why bother with it? Edit: and AGI is impossible… ones light cone does not extend far enough to accuratel…

This is a strange position.

>Wasted engineering if it isn’t teaching us anything physics hadn’t already decades ago, then. Why bother with it?

Why build cars and locomotives if they don't teach us anything Horses didn't...

>and AGI is impossible… ones light cone does not extend far enough to accurately learn; training on simulation is not sufficient to prepare for reality. Any machine we make will eventually get destroyed by some composition of space time we/the machine could not prepare for.

This could be applied to human's as well. Unless you believe in some extra-physical aspect of the human mind there is no reason to think it is different than a mind in silicon.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#74
I have a criticism that is the opposite of the article. We already know an immense amount about animal welfare and have done relatively little about it. Even if the AI welfare research is true, what are the chances we'll actually act on it?

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#75
post #26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why make AI then if intelligence is electrical activity in a substrate is everywhere. We’re engineering nothing novel at great resource cost and appropriation of agency. Good job we made the models in the textbook “real”? Wasted engineering if it isn’t teaching us anything physics hadn’t already decades ago, then. Why bother with it? Edit: and AGI is impossible… ones light cone does not extend far enough to accuratel…

AGI may not be impossible. But next token prediction won't get us there.

It's actually really unclear that this is true. If you brought GPT-o3 back to 1990 I have a hard time believing the world wouldn't immediately consider it full AGI.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#76
post #26
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why make AI then if intelligence is electrical activity in a substrate is everywhere. We’re engineering nothing novel at great resource cost and appropriation of agency. Good job we made the models in the textbook “real”? Wasted engineering if it isn’t teaching us anything physics hadn’t already decades ago, then. Why bother with it? Edit: and AGI is impossible… ones light cone does not extend far enough to accuratel…

AGI may not be impossible. But next token prediction won't get us there.

[dead]

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#77
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're both valid concerns.

The actual harms being done today are still more pressing than the hypothetical harms of future. And should be prioritized in terms of resources spent.

If it's a valid dichotomy (I don't think it is) then the answer is to stop research on LLMs, and task the researchers with fighting human slavery instead.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#78

I know everyone has different opinions on LLM safety/ethics and I respect that. However for me this “AI Welfare” indicates that Anthropic is lead by lunatics and that’s more scary. You have to be pretty crazy to worry the code running on GPUs has “feelings”.

> Anthropic is lead by lunatics I think you mean scam artists. Cranking the hype up further so they can get other people to fork over even more money.

Good point. That probably explains it best.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#79
post #62
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so absurd about the idea of ascribing consciousness to some potential future form of AI? We don't understand consciousness, but we've an idea that it's an emergent phenomena. Given the recent papers about how computationally dense our DNA are, and the computing capacity of our brains, is it so unreasonable to assume that a sufficiently complex program running on non-organic matter could give rise to conscious…

It reeks of some navel-gazing self-aggrandizing. I bet not even half the people doing the hand-wringing over how some matrix multiplications might feel are vegan or regularly spare a thought about how their or their companies consumption behavior indirectly leads to real human suffering. It's just so absurd how narrowly their focus on preventing suffering is. I almost can't imagine a world where their concern isn't c…

I'm not highly concerned but I think there is merit in at least contemplating this problem. I believe that it would be better to reduce suffering in animals, but I am not vegan because the weight of my moral concern for animals does not outweigh my other priorities.

I believe that it doesn't really matter whether consciousness comes from electronics or cells. If something seems identical to what we consider consciousness, I will likely believe it's better to not make that thing suffer. Though ultimately it's still just a consideration balanced among other concerns.

Re: The Problem with AI Welfare

#80
post #2

Oh wow. My respect for Anthropic just dropped to zero; I had no idea they were entertaining ideas this stupid. In full agreement with OP; there is just about no justifiable basis to begin to ascribe consciousness to these things in this way. Can't think of a better use for the word "dehumanizing."

Rights aren't zero sum. This is classic fixed pie fallacy thinking. If we admit Elephants are conscious it has no effect on the quality of consciousness of humans.
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