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Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

arijitvsdelta.blogspot.co.uk

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Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#71

Post by chiph »

Bud wrote: post #23
chiph wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because when the plane pushes back from the gate, the pilot is in charge and is responsible for the safety of everyone aboard. Much like how a captain at sea is responsible for everyone on board his ship (and is held accountable should tragedy strike). It's not a republic or democracy when you're on his plane. What he says, goes.

That's not a why. That's just you stating the fact, and it's non-responsive to my question. In this case, the plane had not pushed back from the gate. The pilot kicked this guy off before the flight. I think it's reasonable to ask why a random, unjustified passenger complaint to the pilot should override the TSA's screening process.

Because he says so.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#72

Post by mindslight »

robotresearcher wrote: post #70
mindslight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As air travel has matured into infrastructure that is generally depended upon, flying has become a right. Especially a return trip. Failure to see this is a deficiency with the narrow "base primitive" view of rights.

Should airline travel be available to all, irrespective of their ability to pay? If not, then it can't be a right, since rights can not be denied based on ability to pay.

Okay, kindly perform whatever formalization is necessary to interpret my statement in your alluded-to framework (factor out payment, s/right/unrestriction/, $whatever), then get back to me.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#73

Post by anigbrowl »

mindslight wrote: post #62
tonycoco wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it a privilege to fly? Not a right. It's not like an airplane is some public government arena. It's the property of the airlines, just so happens that you have to be cleared by the government to fly. Don't they have the right to refuse service to a customer, especially if that customer is making employees and other customers uneasy. I'm sure if you went into a McDonald's and were wearing some suspicious clothin…

As air travel has matured into infrastructure that is generally depended upon, flying has become a right. Especially a return trip. Failure to see this is a deficiency with the narrow "base primitive" view of rights.

flying has become a right

I think you need to lay out your argument in greater detail than you have done so far.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#74

Post by grecy »

robotresearcher wrote: post #66
grecy wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a cramped airline fuselage isn't the ideal place for your political protest. Free Speech (but only when we say so)

The right to free speech is rule that restricts the power of the government only. It has nothing to do with companies or individuals. Just as I can ask you to leave my home if you insult my mother, a company can refuse you access to their airplane if they don't like your T-shirt. That's their business decision.

Hmm. thanks for the info.

Could McDonald's legally deny me entry to their restaurant if I was wearing a T-Shirt that said "I support Obama"?

Further, can they legally deny me entry for no reason at all?

(I'm not trolling, I genuinely don't know the answers)

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#75

Post by jack-r-abbit »

grecy wrote: post #74
robotresearcher wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to free speech is rule that restricts the power of the government only. It has nothing to do with companies or individuals. Just as I can ask you to leave my home if you insult my mother, a company can refuse you access to their airplane if they don't like your T-shirt. That's their business decision.

Hmm. thanks for the info. Could McDonald's legally deny me entry to their restaurant if I was wearing a T-Shirt that said "I support Obama"? Further, can they legally deny me entry for no reason at all? (I'm not trolling, I genuinely don't know the answers)

Generally speaking, most businesses will have some sort of "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" type policy. However, they will often come under fire for (ab)using that policy however they see fit. It is a tricky situation really. It probably comes down to whether or not you fall into a group that is protected. They would be in a media/legal shit storm if they denied you entry because you were in a wheelchair. I don't know if being a Democratic is a protected group.

Edit: I guess specifically if being in that protected group played into why you were denied. Meaning, they can toss you for being drunk even if you're in a wheelchair.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#76

Post by Turing_Machine »

grecy wrote: post #40
anigbrowl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is one possibility, but so is anxiety about the guy's shirt and his attitude. Not very rational, but a cramped airline fuselage isn't the ideal place for your political protest. A snotty disregard for the concerns of others tends to make them unsympathetic to your point of view. As for why pilots have the power to boot people, it's because they're responsible for the safety and happiness of the passengers duri…

> a cramped airline fuselage isn't the ideal place for your political protest. Free Speech (but only when we say so)

The First Amendment applies to the government, not to private entities such as airlines and not on private property (such as the interior of an aircraft).

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#77

Post by jack-r-abbit »

Hmmm.... it just occurred to me... what do you think would happen if they threw the man off because he was wearing a clown outfit? That seems pretty ridiculous to me. But let's consider the number of people that have a genuine fear of clowns. Is it still ridiculous? I still think so. But if this was all about making sure that all of the passengers felt comfortable, then it would seem perfectly acceptable to toss a man for dressing like a clown. But that does not seem acceptable at all. Just like when Billie Joe Armstrong got tossed because his pants were saggy[1]. And he's a god damn rock star!

[1]http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/billie-joe-armstrong-kic...

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#78

Post by mindslight »

anigbrowl wrote: post #73
mindslight wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As air travel has matured into infrastructure that is generally depended upon, flying has become a right. Especially a return trip. Failure to see this is a deficiency with the narrow "base primitive" view of rights.

flying has become a right I think you need to lay out your argument in greater detail than you have done so far.

Society has evolved to the point where many people are regularly traveling long distances. Flying itself has become an integral part of this travel, to the point that driving or taking the train across the country is seen as adventurous. Flight transport is a commodity provided by many carriers in a mature market. The economics of and reliance on this market may change in the future, but as it stands, this commodity is relied upon by the modern world.

To say that carriers should be able to selectively revoke this abstraction and deny travel to specific individuals is to give them the power to force arbitrary rules on anyone who relies on this infrastructure. This would make all rights subject to the whims of the airlines.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#79

Post by guelo »

mturmon wrote: post #24
rm999 wrote: post #7

His point isn't particularly controversial, air security has gone too far. But he was looking for trouble by wearing that shirt, in his words mocking the "over-reactions to terrorism by the general public". He comes off as an angry person who doesn't sympathize with the genuine (and obvious) fears people may have. Ultimately he weakens his own point by acting so ridiculous; he gave the TSA and Delta a reason to mess…

You can wear the shirt, but you can't be surprised when they single you out for more security checks. (Recognition and response to specific potential threats is what critics of "security theater" want, anyway.) Once you get the check, which was not unexpected, you should expect that if you are perceived as smarting off, then the situation will get worse. Since they have all the power, it can get arbitrarily bad. Give…

This protest was extremely effective. His message has reached thousands of people and I wouldn't be surprised if Delta s actually looking into their policies.

Re: Man kicked off flight by pilot for wearing anti-TSA shirt

#80

Post by ghshephard »

Bud wrote: post #18
powertower wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do NASCAR hats and racist tattoos have to do with this? This person knowing full well about the hysteria around terrorism, bombs, and air flights went out of his way to cause an incident, and is now complaining about "white racists", unfair treatment, and the airlines. All he had to do was show up dressed in a normal tee-shirt. But this wasn't good enough for him. He had to make a statement. In a cramped space o…

They have a lot to do with it, actually. My point is that if some speech, communicated by wearing a T-shirt and nothing else, is actionable, then perhaps other forms of speech should be actionable, too. This person did not "go out of his way" to cause an incident. He wore a T-shirt and that is all he did. "Making a statement" is ok. This is America. We supposedly protect that right, even when we do not agree with the…

Feel free to make statements where they are appropriate, and I'll defend your right to do so. Feel free to write material on your blog, to write books, to make speeches in public areas. Airplanes are not the places to be making statements. Actually, most public travel is probably an inappropriate place to be making statements.

If you feel the need to make statements about Bombs, terrorists, and Blood while attempting to board an airplane, don't be surprised if others feel the need to spend a bit more time talking about you based on your behavior.

And yes - there are many, many forms of speech that are actionable when crossing borders, boarding planes, entering federal buildings - one of the key jobs of a security person is to evaluate you based on things like delaying in answering simple questions, being evasive, appearing nervous, and yes - talking about bombs and terrorists killing all of us.

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