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Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

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Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#71

Post by sensanaty »

blitzar wrote: post #32

How did we solve this when calculators came along and ruined peoples ability to do mental arithmetic and use slide rulers?

I was allowed to use calculators during my A-level Math/Physics/Chem exams, but knowing what to punch in was half the battle. Hell, they even give you most of the formulae on the very first page of the exam sheet, but again, application of that knowledge is the hard part.

Point being, the fundamentals matter. I can't do mental arithmetic very well these days because it's been years since I've practiced, but I know how it works in the first place and can do it if need be. How is a kid learning geometry or calculus supposed to get by and learn to spot the patterns that make sense and the ones that don't without first knowing the fundamentals underlaying the more complex concepts?

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#72

Post by kenjackson »

bee_rider wrote: post #42
ryandrake wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe schools and universities need to stop considering homework to be evidence of subject matter mastery. Grading homework never made sense to me. What are you measuring, really, and how confident are you of that measurement? You can't put the toothpaste back into the tube. Universities need to accept that AI exists, and adjust their operations accordingly.

Grading homework has two reasonable objectives: Provide an incentive for students to do the thing they should be doing anyway. Give an opportunity to provide feedback on the assignment. It is totally useless as an evaluation mechanic, because of course the students that want to can just cheat. It’s usually pretty small, right? IIRC when I did tutoring we only gave like 10-20% for the aggregate homework grade.

In most of my classes the HW was far more valuable of a measure of ability -- assuming cheating didn't occur. For example, my compilers HW assignments much more greatly captured my learning. I just feel like a semester writing an optimizing compiler is just going to be better than the 90-120 minute final exam.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#73

Post by HPsquared »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #57
jumploops wrote: post #55

A bit off-topic, but I think AI has the potential to supercharge learning for the students of the future. Similar to Montessori, LLMs can help students who wander off in various directions. I remember often being “stuck” on some concept (usually in biology and chemistry), where the teacher would hand-wave something as truth, this dismissing my request for further depth. Of course, LLMs in the current educational land…

The last thing I need when researching a hard problem is an interlocutor who might lie to me, make up convincing citations to nowhere, and tell me more or less what I want to hear.

Still better than the typical classroom experience. And you can always ask again, there's no need to avoid offending the person who has a lot of power over you.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#74

Post by Tryk »

jumploops wrote: post #55

A bit off-topic, but I think AI has the potential to supercharge learning for the students of the future. Similar to Montessori, LLMs can help students who wander off in various directions. I remember often being “stuck” on some concept (usually in biology and chemistry), where the teacher would hand-wave something as truth, this dismissing my request for further depth. Of course, LLMs in the current educational land…

The problem is that many students come to university unequipped with the discipline it takes to actually study. Teaching students how to effectively learn is a side-effect of university education.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#75

Post by thatguy0900 »

valiant55 wrote: post #43
math_dandy wrote: post #28

I teach math at a large university (30,000 students) and have also gone “back to the earth”, to pen-and-paper, proctored and exams. Students don’t seem to mind this reversion. The administration, however, doesn’t like this trend. They want all evaluation to be remote-friendly, so that the same course with the same evaluations can be given to students learning in person or enrolled online. Online enrollment is a huge…

Capitalism and the constant thirst for growth is killing society. Since when did universities care almost solely about renevnue and growth?

With the us government now going after their funding they may have to start caring even more

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#76

Post by aaplok »

math_dandy wrote: post #67
aaplok wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Students don’t seem to mind this reversion. Those I ask are unanimously horrified that this is the choice they are given. They are devastated that the degree for which they are working hard is becoming worthless yet they all assert they don't want exams back. Many of them are neurodivergent who do miserably in exam conditions and in contrast excel in open tasks that allow them to explore, so my sample is biased but…

We have an Accessible Testing Center that will administer and proctor exams under very flexible conditions (more time, breaks, quiet/privacy, …) to help students with various forms of neurodivergence. They’re very good and offer a valuable service without placing any significant additional burden on the instructor. Seems to work well, but I don’t have first hand knowledge about how these forms of accommodations are v…

Yes I think the issue is as much that open tasks make learning interesting and meaningful in a way that exams hardly can do.

This is the core of the issue really. If we are in the business of teaching, as in making people learn, exams are a pretty blunt and ineffective instrument. However since our business is also assessing, proctoring is the best if not only trustworthy approach and exams are cheap in time, effort and money to do that.

My take is that we should just (properly) assess students at the end of their degree. Spend time (say, a full day) with them but do it only once in the degree (at the end), so you can properly evaluate their skills. Make it hard so that the ones who graduate all deserve it.

Then the rest of their time at university should be about learning what they will need.

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#77

Post by sien »

math_dandy wrote: post #28

I teach math at a large university (30,000 students) and have also gone “back to the earth”, to pen-and-paper, proctored and exams. Students don’t seem to mind this reversion. The administration, however, doesn’t like this trend. They want all evaluation to be remote-friendly, so that the same course with the same evaluations can be given to students learning in person or enrolled online. Online enrollment is a huge…

In Australia Universities that have remote study have places where people can do proctored exams in large cities. The course is done remotely but the exam, which is often 50%+ of the final grade, is done in a place that has proctored exams as a service.

Can't this be done in the US as well ?

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#78

Post by kenjackson »

The idea with calculators was that as a tool there are higher level questions that calculators would help you answer. A simple example is that calculators don't solve word problems, but you can use them to do the intermediate computations.

What are the higher level questions that LLMs will help with, but for which humans are absolutely necessary? The concern I have is that this line doesn't exist -- and at the very best it is very fuzzy.

Ironically, this higher level task for humans might be ensuring that the AIs aren't trying to get us (whatever that means, genocide, slavery, etc...).

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#79

Post by busyant »

nkrisc wrote: post #13

If the trend continues, it seems like most college degrees will be completely worthless. If students using AI to cheat on homework are graduating with a degree, then it has lost all value as a certificate that the holder has completed some minimum level of education and learning. Institutions that award such degrees will be no different than degree mills of the past. I’m just grateful my college degree has the year 2…

> If students using AI to cheat on homework

This is not related to "AI", but I have an amusing story about online cheating.

* I have a nephew who was switched into online college classes at the beginning of the pandemic.

* As soon as they switched to online, the class average on the exams shot up, but my nephew initially refused to cheat.

* Eventually he relented (because everyone else was doing it) and he pasted a multitude of sticky notes on the wall at the periphery of his computer monitor.

* His father walks into his room, looks at all the sticky notes and declares, "You can't do this!!! It'll ruin the wallpaper!"

Re: Trying to teach in the age of the AI homework machine

#80

Post by const_cast »

aaplok wrote: post #76
math_dandy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have an Accessible Testing Center that will administer and proctor exams under very flexible conditions (more time, breaks, quiet/privacy, …) to help students with various forms of neurodivergence. They’re very good and offer a valuable service without placing any significant additional burden on the instructor. Seems to work well, but I don’t have first hand knowledge about how these forms of accommodations are v…

Yes I think the issue is as much that open tasks make learning interesting and meaningful in a way that exams hardly can do. This is the core of the issue really. If we are in the business of teaching, as in making people learn, exams are a pretty blunt and ineffective instrument. However since our business is also assessing, proctoring is the best if not only trustworthy approach and exams are cheap in time, effort…

Exams aren't for learning, they're for measuring. Projects and lecture are for learning.

The problem with this "end of university exam" structure is that you have the same problems as before but now that exam is weighted like 10,000% that of a normal exam.

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