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Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

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Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#71
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... decreased by increased mass. I don't think this is in general true for planets or stars. You're confounding multiple effects. For a fixed number of particles, increasing metallicity , which follows average particle mass, should reduce radius, but for a fixed metallicity and temperature, increasing particles will increase radius. Temp has the effects stated. You can roughly validate this by the fact that massive…

In the sense that higher gravity increases density all other things being equal. yes, absolute size will slowly increase - until it collapses, anyway.

Gas giants generally only get slightly larger than Jupiter (even with adding a lot of mass), until they start to shrink - and eventually with enough mass, turn into actual stars [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_giant]

So generally, gas giants don’t get much bigger than Jupiter.

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#72
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes that curve exponential?

Newtonian gravity (classical mechanics). Two-body gravitational attraction is observed to be an inverse square power law; gravitational attraction decreases with the square of the distance. g, the gravitational constant of Earth, is observed to be exponential; 9.8 m/s^2. Atmospheric pressure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure#:~:text=P... : > Pressure (P), mass (m), and acceleration due to gravity (g…

Was there an issue with this answer about why water pressure is?

Are you donvoting according to preference or to Terms of Service?

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#73

I am deeply skeptical of any "research" that concludes something in the past. The scientific method relies on observation, experimentation, and replication, but these aren't possible with past events, so we can't directly test or falsify historical claims. Instead, researchers infer conclusions based on indirect evidence like documents, artifacts, or statistical patterns—often without being able to isolate variables…

> I am deeply skeptical ...

Perhaps you mean, you don't understand or you wonder how it reconciles with the scientific method? It's an interesting question about theory.

To be 'deeply skeptical' is not meaningful, imho. All these people - including Newton, Darwin, Einstein, and so many more, including the entire scientific community - believe it. All these experiments replicate it. You are deeply skeptical about all of that and of all of them? What does it mean, even to you?

> we can't directly test or falsify historical claims. Instead, researchers infer conclusions based on indirect evidence like documents, artifacts, or statistical patterns—often without being able to isolate variables or rule out alternatives.

We can directly test the claims through many methods, for example that the stone tool was made 2.58 million years old, but we can't see 2.58 million years ago (except something that is 2.58 million light years away, of course). We can indirectly test claims, e.g., that tool use existed 2.58 million years ago, through many different methods.

You're right that it's not the same. What else can we do? Just quit and live in ignorance?

> If something is not falsifiable, it is not science in my book. Research that is falsifiable uncovers deep truths of nature that will benefit humanity's progress, which this kind of research will not.

You can call it what you want, but that doesn't change its value. Is this just a question of terminology?

By this proposed theory, we can't know anything that happened before now. We can't know what happened in ancient China - did the Han dynasty even exist? We can't know who won the Olympic marathon in 1928 without witnesses to tell us. We can't know what happened yesterday - human memory is certainly fallible, and otherwise you have only indirect evidence. That applies to every scientific paper, providing indirect evidence to us of what has happened, and mostly based on human memory. Did I write what you are reading? Where is your falsifiable direct observation?

We also can't know much of what is happening now. Most science data is based on indirect observation by devices and machines. Human sensory ability is limited and unreliable in many ways. What color is the light in the experiment? We measure that with a machine that gives us indirect information.

I think a key challenge to your theory is, how do we know anything at all?

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#74

I've always wondered about the core of these gas giants. I assume it is some liquid form of light elements. What is puzzling is the presence of the gas giants in the middle of solar system's planetary line up: why are they in the middle and the ones closer or further away from the central star are not like them? Is it the temperature gradient?

They aren't in the middle of the “planetary lineup”.

The four inner planets are all terrestrial. The four outer planets are gas (the last fwl sometimes distinguished instead as “ice”) giants.

There are dwarf planets (a separate category from, rather than sibcategory of, planets) closer and farther, but no known rocky planets beyond the gas/ice giants.

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#75
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's wild to think about. My mind is struggling to picture 'liquids on the surface' of Jupiter. No idea what that would look like.

I am deeply looking forward to the dragonfly mission to Titan, since we'll finally get high-resolution color images from the surface, which has liquid seas of hydrocarbons like methane and ethane at -290 F. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonfly_(Titan_space_probe) The single image from the surface by the Huygens probe leaves a lot to be desired. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(moon)#/media/File:Huyge...

Yeah this is gonna be awesome, appreciate the heads up!

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Venus has a solid surface.

Yes, that's why I said buff. The radius as defined would increase, because surface pressure is 90 bar, so at 1 bar, you're pretty high in the atmosphere. I can see merit in such a definition because that is the level at which we wouldn't have to pressurize our space stations to be comfortable. (Really 1/3 bar is fine too.)

Ah, I see what you're saying, didn't know the surface pressure was so high! I suppose Titan would also get an atmosphere radius buff!

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#77
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true in a narrow sense—every observation records something that has already happened. But in science, observations can be tested, replicated, and used to predict future outcomes. The kind of "research" I'm skeptical of draws broad, causal conclusions about unique, unrepeatable past events where none of that is possible.

It’s always a theory, but what choice do you have? You can’t rerun the experiment again under controlled conditions. Your only choice is to theorize or not. Sure, there is more possible error in such theories compared to other theories where you can rerun the experiment multiple times to test it, but that doesn’t mean that a theory that can’t be tested is wrong.

It’s actually seldom a Theory. In fact, I’d be surprised if scientists were eager to form “Theory on the Formation of Jupiter” [or Venus or the Moon] because those are already quite specific subjects that should be derived from generalized theories.

We’re thinking of hypotheses and proposals and extrapolations here. A few scientists analyzed and compared existing data, and they estimate things and interpolate and ... guess ... And the narrative develops as they give facility tours and answer questions for journalists, 8-year-olds, and 8-year-old journalists.

Theories are hypotheses which were tested and survived falsification attempted against them. You cannot adequately falsify “800 million years ago, and 12 parsecs away...” but you can enjoy your colleagues’ version of the story over drinks with a jazz band.

Re: Jupiter was formerly twice its current size, had a much stronger magnetic field

#78
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gravity changes little over that distance - it's more because of the compounding effect of atmospheric pressure (the deeper you go, the more air you have above you which raises the pressure, raising the density and meaning that pressure increases exponentially faster).

What makes that curve exponential?

via feynmann

> 40–1 The exponential atmosphere

https://www.feynmanlectures.caltech.edu/I_40.html

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