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Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

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Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#71

Post by autoexec »

tough wrote: post #56
diggan wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on "acquired" means. Pillages as part of a war? Then yes, why not give it back? "Acquired" in terms of gifted by the other party, like this Obelisk, then no, that wouldn't make sense. Same goes for purchased. But things stolen with violence or threat of violence, should probably be returned (if they want it returned). While we shouldn't hold children responsible for the actions of our parents, we can also be…

Americans "purchased" new york from the natives after feeding them alcohol to decimate their population for a few dollars.

Everything in America is "pillaged" I guess and should be returned. Seems unrealistic.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#72

Post by autoexec »

amitport wrote: post #41
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally understand the sentiment, I would also argue that most of the countries that have been pillaged of artifacts are also incredibly unstable. I would rather the pillaging exist than to lose history. We could go on as to why those countries are unstable but keeping it bounded to simply the pillaging of artifacts I stand behind it.

Now I'll just be waiting for Italy to return the colleseum stones to Jerusalem. Pretty sure the temple would have been fine, if they would not have destroyed it themeselves. The "we took it to keep it safe" argument is kinda of weak, and still morally wrong

I'm not sure how many things were taken to keep them safe and not just because "we want this", but I can envision instances where it would be justified. It'd have been nice if people swooped in to rescue the statues the Taliban went around destroying, or saved the rare books that were being burned in Baghdad.

I suppose the nice thing to do in those situations would be to return those artifacts to the areas they came from once the place was reasonably stable, but in some situations that day has yet to come.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#73

Post by autoexec »

aredox wrote: post #30
krapp wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans routinely destroyed the artifacts of any culture they considered heretical. They tore down Greek and Roman temples to build churches on the ruins. They stripped the Coliseum for parts. They made soup out of mummies and traded grave goods as baubles. The premise that they somehow deserve to be considered the librarians and guardians of the very cultures they colonized and exploited is an absurd, and implicit…

> They tore down Greek and Roman temples to build churches on the ruins. They stripped the Coliseum for parts. They made soup out of mummies and traded grave goods as baubles. And yet they/we changed, and have preserved countless artifacts that even their original cultures are only now interested in. Not to forget that the very promotion of those foreign artifacts played a big role in making Westerners recognize the…

> Not to forget that the very promotion of those foreign artifacts played a big role in making Westerners recognize the value of those other cultures and how much we have destroyed!

This is kind of where I stand on zoos. It sucks to see animals taken from their homes and held in unnatural captivity but the science, conservation, and educational aspects have a lot of value which is hard to ignore. A lot of people would never care if they didn't see with their own eyes what they stand to lose.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#74

Post by betterThanTexas »

autoexec wrote: post #66
pdw wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto-hieroglyphic writing is a real thing: https://www.britannica.com/topic/hieroglyphic-writing/Crypto... Such writing would give non-standard meanings to signs, or drawn them in non-standard ways, or use entirely invented signs. It would be a puzzle to work out the meaning, and I imagine most people who weren't very literate would be stumped. They certainly stumped egyptologists for a while when the first example…

I imagine most people who weren't very literate would also be stumped by things written fairly plainly.

From the way they describe how the message is read, it doesn't seem written very plainly at all. It would be odd to assume that this knowledge was accessible to many people if the manner in which it's written is only found in certain circumstances.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#75

Post by betterThanTexas »

permo-w wrote: post #48
thechao wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect, that in the context of "reputable academically sound Egyptologist" the number "6" is a bumper crop of Egyptologists. The set of reputable academics in these fields is always a lot smaller than you'd like. I think that's why there's so many cranks.

I struggle with Egyptology as a whole. you watch even mainstream, reputable documentaries on Ancient Egypt and there is a lot of what and little why, and it makes you wonder how much of it is actual science and how much of it is just the most exciting available interpretation of the facts to please the Egyptians/draw in viewers. the Egyptian authorities want tourists, and control archaeology licenses tightly, and "we…

> and it makes you wonder how much of it is actual science

I don't wonder. You can look up egyptian texts with translations and pronunciation guides. We have literally hundreds of thousands of discarded papyri and plenty of papers detailing the archaeological processes of their excavations and interpretations. It's a gold-mine of explicit documentation about their practices and beliefs and logistics over millennia. We know about their diets, their genetics, how their ruling class changed over time, how they interpreted life and death, to the extent where we can draw likely religious transmission among stories with other near-east religions. The extent of evidence we have demonstrating actual knowledge is better than anything else in the ancient world.

Granted, interpretation isn't science, but it's still expected to be presented rationally. The linguistics that yielded the translation itself proved empirically very reliable.

There are many cranks into Egyptian history with many different agendas, though, and I'm sure many of them call themselves egyptologists.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#76

Post by conartist6 »

DemocracyFTW2 wrote: post #64

While hieroglyphic cryptography is a thing (as is BTW "sportive orthography" in Ancient Egyptian), this is not it. I am all for acknowledging that Ancient Egyptian art is often merging writing and depiction in a way that escapes the unprepared who would point to a prominent figure in a grave wall decoration and say 'this is a picture', then point to some hieroglyphs and say 'that is writing'. It's in principle not wr…

Very interesting. Could this just be a miscommunication caused by a blogger literally looking to write clickbait? Hype up a paper without revealing its main conclusion? I would have no way of knowing if this very literal reading of the scene contains some wordplay that would require knowing how these words sounded.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#77

Post by chasil »

autoexec wrote: post #67
BurnGpuBurn wrote: post #58

Would they ever give the thing back though?

Why give it back? It seems like a nice gift.

It was a gift from the Ottoman Empire.

That political entity no longer exists, and the people of Egypt would likely never have willingly parted with the many obelisks and other historical artifacts that have left their shores.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#78

Post by orwin »

gostsamo wrote: post #40
orwin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was too complex to steal, and Ottomans historical alliance with France, while disturbed by Napoleon, was still strong after his coup ended (France had sovereignty over a lot of small territories in the Ottoman empire due to their "protector of the Church" status). That we don't know what was traded exactly (some people say it's the Cairo clock, but it is unclear and probably false) doesn't matter. The fact that Ch…

Any idea why the ottomans felt obliged to "gift" another obelisk to the brits though?

Yes, probably because the British helped the ottomans push back the Napoleonic army before they could enter 'true' ottoman lands (basically stopped them at Rafah or something, I have to check) then let the ottomans retake Egypt for free, without involving other regional powers (it was under ottoman rules in name only when Napoleon was sent there, and truly ruled by ottomans when he got kicked out). I have _not_ read about the English empire in this era, so I might be absolutely wrong. I mostly know French (and Italian somehow) 'modern' history (and only part of it, im not well read on the first Napoléonic empire, just on the moments before, the moments after, and the late second empire)

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#79

Post by shakow »

amitport wrote: post #39
rixed wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's interresting. According to wikipedia[0], the frenchs did think about stealing it during the Napoleonic wars, but didn't. Some time later they "suggested" to the Ottomans that the obelisks be offered, in exchange for a monumental clock[1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxor_Obelisks#Luxor_Obelisk... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Citadel_Clock

In any case, it didn't belong to the Ottomans to give away. Getting it as gift from a conquering entity, does not make any of it better.

I mean, if you really want to go down this way, it does not really belong to the Egyptians either. It's not because current-day Egyptians share the same land as antiquity Egyptians that they are the same people – countless waves of war, massacres, migrations, emigrations happened in the last 4 millenia.

Re: Egyptologist uncovers hidden messages on Paris’s iconic obelisk

#80

Post by shakow »

krapp wrote: post #25
infecto wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I generally understand the sentiment, I would also argue that most of the countries that have been pillaged of artifacts are also incredibly unstable. I would rather the pillaging exist than to lose history. We could go on as to why those countries are unstable but keeping it bounded to simply the pillaging of artifacts I stand behind it.

Europeans routinely destroyed the artifacts of any culture they considered heretical. They tore down Greek and Roman temples to build churches on the ruins. They stripped the Coliseum for parts. They made soup out of mummies and traded grave goods as baubles. The premise that they somehow deserve to be considered the librarians and guardians of the very cultures they colonized and exploited is an absurd, and implicit…

Whereas Antiquity Egyptians were well-known for being a well-behaving people, that never ever dared touch their neighbor's property? Didn't countless Pharaohs proudly inscribed in stone how many foes they killed, how many lands they conquered, how much riches they pillaged?
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