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Getting things “done” in large tech companies

seangoedecke.com

71–80 of 228 posts

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#71
> In large tech companies, this fact is a trap for competent but unagentic engineers. They see an infinite queue of tasks that they’re capable of doing, and they start delivering a stream of marginal improvements to a particular subsystem. From their perspective, it feels like they’re crushing it. After all, they’re putting out work at their top speed: no downtime, no waiting on other teams. But they’re not doing their actual job, which is to deliver the most value they can to their company. From the perspective of their manager and skip-level, they’re not getting anything done.

I strenuously disagree with this premise, not because I don't think this ever happens (it definitely does!), but because it's not the responsibility of an individual contributor to attempt to divine the organisation's priorities: that's a core management function.

My employer buys forty hours of my time each week. It's my employer's responsibility to allocate tasks to me in order to best suit the organisation's needs and goals. Recently, I spent an entire week waiting for a specific person to review my code. It's my responsibility to (tactfully) inform my managers of this problem, but it's not my responsibility to solve this problem on my own initiative. The person might have a temporary backlog of tasks, they might be dealing with personal issues, they might have some workflow problems: in some of these cases, the root cause is something I shouldn't know about.

This isn't to say that I'm just the monkey at the bottom of the tree being shat on by those further up: I do pass my (frequently misinformed) opinions and observations up to my managers, but it's up to them to decide whether and how to act upon them. They have more information - feedback from more people for a start - and consequently can make better decisions than me.

If you feel that you have to fight your organisation to serve its needs, something has gone seriously wrong - possibly with you, but more likely with the organisation itself. Organisational pathologies are themselves Chesterton's fences - they exist for some reason, even if the reason is stupid - and are consequently difficult to fix. Perhaps making things difficult for you makes things easier for everyone else. Perhaps fixing the issue will involve so much change to the way the organisation is managed that it's actually better to leave things as they are.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#72

While I generally agree with this, I’d add one thing: to understand what your managers want, you really need to understand the business. At the highest level, how does your company make money, or at least think it’s going to make money? What other things does the company value? It’s surprising how often I find developers who don’t know, either because they aren’t curious, are too busy to learn, or (surprisingly commo…

I think it's fair to think of yourself as a carpenter. Devs talk a lot about this being a craft. You build to spec but point out problems when the spec is not possible or silly.

It's the business's jobs to know how to explain the business and their needs. If they can't explain it, they probably don't understand it. If they do understand it but can't explain it, they probably need to work on their soft skills. You're also going to learn the business implicitly if they're explaining it well.

You could be a developer that also knows the business, but where's the compensation for going the extra mile? Especially when the layoffs come around. Another perspective is if you have time to work the business side, what could you have been working on technically to improve things? So there's potentially an opportunity cost too unless everything is currently as optimal as it can be.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#73
post #66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How will you define a good PM? I have been looking for this definition for a while. In my startup experience, it seems to me the best PMs are the CTO and the early engineers who has near infinite business and user context.

Same experience, IME founders make amazing PMs, because they care about the company and they care about people not wasting their time. Not OP, but I can answer: They're ok with ideas coming from someone else, check the ego at the door and listen to both engineers and customers. They make engineers work less and produce more value. Most important, they don't have a "vision", they help organize the team so the team has…

yes! The best PMs I've worked with have been founders.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#74
I don’t want to be negative, but writing a mathematical proof and planting a tree are about the worst metaphors I could possibly think of. Building a house is probably a better example for something that could be infinitely maintained and improved.

After the bad metaphors, all the article really says is “do visible work and finish it”. This seems obvious.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#75
post #55
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that is also why large segments of the big corp work environment check out and do the absolute minimum - or even create chaos to make it less obvious who is doing what for whom. Because the paycheck is indeed useful for them, eh?

This is why small companies can compete. What they lose out on economies of scale, they gain on avoiding this.

They can also get completely nuked by market forces a lot easier.

Also, pay is usually a lot less.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#76
post #21
post #3

I don't disagree with the article, but after working in big tech, two HN startups, a couple unicorns and others, in two continents, I don't really find this too actionable. In the last ten years (and even in the 20-people HN startups), the day to day work of engineers has become so incredibly specialised and divorced from the needs of decision-makers and the customers that there is almost nothing I can do to influenc…

So, fire the Product Managers?

I left the government for corporate work, and we didn't have project managers as a specific role. Of course, people were managing projects, but it was nothing like it was in the government. In my short experience, project managers:

- Have no understanding of the technology they're "building."

- Don't understand who is responsible for what.

- Would have NO idea if things were set up incorrectly.

- Are solely working through a checklist of items and asking "is this done, or do you have dependencies?"

- The checklist itself was just built by interviewing different stakeholders, but it's the PM who puts it together and of course the PM who doesn't really understand the detailed or high level view of the project.

It's pretty maddening, and self-evidently stupid. I really cannot fathom why my company and other companies fail to understand what a waste of time and money this is. And worse, than the PMs are often leading to worse outcomes. Please keep this in mind anytime someone tells you that we need to "run government like a business," or suggests that businesses are wildly efficient whereas government is never efficient. If we had EVER had a useless PM like this back in government I would have forced them off the project as part of our criteria for success. In the corporate world, there's really no such option, because project success is always secondary to the businesses wants.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#77
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, fire the Product Managers?

Good PMs are worth their weight in gold and actually make engineers' jobs easier. Bad PMs create a useless "translation" layer that doesn't help anyone (except, perhaps, themselves.)

My previous PM was ultra valuable. Put devs in contact with the customers, got out of the way of deciding what to build, and then sheltered the devs from the chaos of customers. He was also smart about what could be done and in what timeline, always working from the estimates engineers gave, working backwards and deciding what scope could be cut and where, who if another team could loan us people. He was the right balance of umbrella, partner and pass through. It was magnificent.

My company, being more than a little bit toxic, he got transferred to a new manager who took an instant dislike to him and he was pulled off all his projects and then fired for not delivering anything. (bit of an exaggeration, he got put onto one of those "all responsibility, no authority" type projects where he was responsible for making sure everyone at the company stopped using the VPN, but he had no authority to force teams to build or migrate services to be available outside the VPN, and there were 2+ decades of services to migrate, and he couldn't direct people to stop connecting to VPN if they needed something that was inside the VPN)

The PM that came along to replace him described himself to all the engineers as "the next Elon", wouldn't let engineers talk to customers, personally decided what features to build with no input from the dev team, even when making technically difficult decisions. He asked for estimates from devs but never used them. Often giving us both half the time asked for, and half the engineers asked for to deliver a project. He never deflected chaos from customers, just added a translation layer that made it impossible to make the customers happy. Everything was an emergency, every feature necessary for an MVP. He'd constantly harass people for status updates, forget what they were working on and harass them again. He constantly asked for documents to be written for himself that he never bothered to open the links too.

He was actively toxic, wrong and an impediment.

He'd send out launch announcements to the org celebrating the projects that were completed and it was customary to list key people who delivered the project. He'd forget whole teams of people that worked on the project. One time he left me off of a project that I lead, got everyone in our sibling team that was helping out though. One person he never forgot to list as being a key person involved in the project was himself. Even in projects he had never heard of before having to write the launch announcement.

That behavior was rewarded, for whatever reason. Although he finally left the company when one of the many rounds of "you must work from the same office as your manager" bullshit caught him up and he wouldn't relocate from canada to the US.

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's kinda the beauty of it. If you get laid off from one of these places the next place doesn't know that you took 300k home to do jack, all they know is you worked for a super prestigious company for 10 years and you can plausibly make up the rest about what you actually did there.

> you can plausibly make up the rest about what you actually did there. I would never do this, and if you would do this I wouldn't want to work with you. Maybe I'm a sucker, but I sleep alright.

What about actually accomplishing some things over 10 years while maintaining good work life balance?

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#79
post #3

I don't disagree with the article, but after working in big tech, two HN startups, a couple unicorns and others, in two continents, I don't really find this too actionable. In the last ten years (and even in the 20-people HN startups), the day to day work of engineers has become so incredibly specialised and divorced from the needs of decision-makers and the customers that there is almost nothing I can do to influenc…

So you’re saying the only time you were satisfied with your work is when you took the role of a product manager who stepped in between the engineers and the rest of the company and had all their contributions filtered through your ego?

Yea, that sounds pretty satisfying…

Re: Getting things “done” in large tech companies

#80

I have mixed feeling on this. Some parts of this are probably good advise, at least with respect to clocking titular promotions. No disagreement around visibility of delivered "big wins" being key. However, I feel like this article is subliminally pro-management, with the thesis statement essentially being just make your manager (and their manager) happy. But what happens when there's no clear direction from manageme…

The solution to this is pretty simple: when you find yourself working for idiots, just quit. It’ll suck for a little while, and then it will get better. Which is much better than spending months trying to make stupid and under-qualified people understand things that smarter people would understand intuitively.
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