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Native visionOS platform support

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Re: Native visionOS platform support

#71

Post by andsoitis »

eksu wrote: post #43
skeptrune wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The visionOS platform doesn't have OpenGL support, as it's not supported by visionOS. Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. They even failed to follow the Godot contribution guide for the PR itself.

OpenGL is quite dated for VR/AR. In the Apple ecosystem they supported OpenGL 4.1 for quite some time before moving to Metal, which was announced 2 years before Vulkan. If you spent the time developing an in house graphics API since open standards weren’t moving forward, why would you rewrite everything a second time just a few years later? Shouldn’t you expect to get a decade or two out of your existing API and only…

> OpenGL is quite dated for VR/AR.

Vulkan and DirectX are the favored graphics rendering technologies for VR.

Godot supports Vulkan rendering via OpenXR.

To get a vibe for Apple’s general posture in this regard it is worth noting that Vulkan rendering through OpenXR on macOS is technically possible via MoltenVK, but macOS does not have an official OpenXR runtime. You’d need to use third-party workarounds or wait for broader support.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#72

Post by jayd16 »

mort96 wrote: post #66
andsoitis wrote: post #27

Godot already supports VR via OpenXR. OpenXR is the Khronos-maintained industry standard for VR/AR devices—supported by SteamVR, Oculus, Vive, Pico, Windows Mixed Reality, Quest. Notably absent is visionOS / Vision Pro. I would insist Apple conforms to the industry standard. More scalable, open.

If Godot does nothing and insists that it's on Apple to to support OpenXR, then VR developers who want to support the Vision Pro will have to use Unity or Unreal or some other non-Godot engine. It achieves nothing other than to reduce Godot's relevance. Godot isn't big enough to pressure Apple.

Considering install base, I'd figure the Vision Pro isn't big enough to pressure Godot.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#73

Post by mort96 »

skeptrune wrote: post #68
mort96 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Godot does nothing and insists that it's on Apple to to support OpenXR, then VR developers who want to support the Vision Pro will have to use Unity or Unreal or some other non-Godot engine. It achieves nothing other than to reduce Godot's relevance. Godot isn't big enough to pressure Apple.

Apple is big enough to sponsor Godot and should if they want to burden their maintainers with extra work long term.

I agree. I'm just saying that the result of responding "no, we won't accept this PR because we won't support visionOS until it supports OpenXR" only results in Godot not support ion visionOS. It doesn't result in visionOS gaining OpenXR support.

Now that doesn't mean it would be the wrong choice for the Godot project, they don't have to support visionOS.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#74

Post by pjmlp »

bigyabai wrote: post #58
eksu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is quite dated for VR/AR. In the Apple ecosystem they supported OpenGL 4.1 for quite some time before moving to Metal, which was announced 2 years before Vulkan. If you spent the time developing an in house graphics API since open standards weren’t moving forward, why would you rewrite everything a second time just a few years later? Shouldn’t you expect to get a decade or two out of your existing API and only…

In an ideal world, Apple would have just built DirectX and sold the Xbox too. But you can't look at it from an executive's perspective, you have to look at it from the developer's point-of-view. This insistence on high-investment, low-ROI APIs is why the Mac doesn't have games. If you run the Metal playbook with VR again, you will have developers outright abandon you. We've already seen what happens. Apple's GPUs sup…

Ah, I guess that is why Nintendo and Sony also don't have games.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#75

Post by dagmx »

andsoitis wrote: post #27

Godot already supports VR via OpenXR. OpenXR is the Khronos-maintained industry standard for VR/AR devices—supported by SteamVR, Oculus, Vive, Pico, Windows Mixed Reality, Quest. Notably absent is visionOS / Vision Pro. I would insist Apple conforms to the industry standard. More scalable, open.

This PR specifically is about getting Godot able to build for visionOS.

Even if Godot insisted on needing OpenXR support , you’d still need to land this PR to get the engine itself to work first.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#76

Post by andsoitis »

dagmx wrote: post #75
andsoitis wrote: post #27

Godot already supports VR via OpenXR. OpenXR is the Khronos-maintained industry standard for VR/AR devices—supported by SteamVR, Oculus, Vive, Pico, Windows Mixed Reality, Quest. Notably absent is visionOS / Vision Pro. I would insist Apple conforms to the industry standard. More scalable, open.

This PR specifically is about getting Godot able to build for visionOS. Even if Godot insisted on needing OpenXR support , you’d still need to land this PR to get the engine itself to work first.

Apple has no intention of fitting within godot’s GTM strategy for VR via OpenXR standard.

Amongst other signals, the PR comment says: “To support creating Immersive experiences by using a new Godot's visionOS VR Plugin.”

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#77

Post by dagmx »

andsoitis wrote: post #54
dewey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you get burned by a company contributing to an open source project before or what makes you so cynical about this PR? I feel like it's the ideal scenario that a company actually dedicates engineers and time to contribute to an open source project instead of doing their own thing, maybe even behind closed doors.

I’m invested in the success of Godot and fear the visionOS distraction dilutes the urgency that’s needed to compete with Unreal and Unity. Additionally, if Godot accepts this PR and related ongoing work, it would signal to me poor strategic judgment. Many an open source project progress slows down under the burden of supporting immaterial platforms.

Have you contributed to Godot yourself or made something of note with it? Multiple developers are actively asking for visionOS support as people on the Godot team have mentioned. Why should your distaste for a platform preclude them from having platform support that would benefit the things they want to build?

Beyond that, have you even looked at the PR here to see what your supposed distraction would be? Most of the PR is shared infrastructure between the Apple embedded platforms.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#78

Post by dagmx »

andsoitis wrote: post #76
dagmx wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This PR specifically is about getting Godot able to build for visionOS. Even if Godot insisted on needing OpenXR support , you’d still need to land this PR to get the engine itself to work first.

Apple has no intention of fitting within godot’s GTM strategy for VR via OpenXR standard. Amongst other signals, the PR comment says: “To support creating Immersive experiences by using a new Godot's visionOS VR Plugin.”

Okay? That still doesn’t mitigate the need for this specific PR first though to even get to that discussion point. That line you mention is not part of the contents of this PR.

Re: Native visionOS platform support

#79

Post by andsoitis »

josephg wrote: post #69
andsoitis wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The graphics division - these days - seems very intent on doing their own thing. Apple is a top-down hierarchy with ruthless business strategy. Not a value judgment; merely a fact to keep in mind when entering a business relationship with Apple. Mike Rockwell, serves as the Vice President of the Vision Products Group. Rockwell has been instrumental in spearheading the Vision Pro project and the underlying visionOS…

> To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view. I'm sure their choices are intentional. But thats just one business unit. Apple is a huge company. And different areas have different priorities.

Not relevant. The VisionOS crew have decided to not support OpenXR and Apple has broadly decided not to support Vulkan, which, together with DirectX are the primary VR rendering technologies.
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