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How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

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Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#71

Post by serkandurusoy »

I haven't noticed many startups working on bringing modern tech to recreational sailing and cruising.

Systems aboard a typical 35-50 foot sailboat produce interesting data streams, but the data don't seem to be used innovatively or interestingly.

This makes me wonder if the market is too small compared to the unicorn-level valuations most seem to aim/hope for.

Kind of putting this out there because I'm a liveaboard sailor looking out for startup ideas and it would be amazing if it were in the marine-tech space. So any feedback/suggestions would be more than welcome.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#72

Post by ianburrell »

serkandurusoy wrote: post #71

I haven't noticed many startups working on bringing modern tech to recreational sailing and cruising. Systems aboard a typical 35-50 foot sailboat produce interesting data streams, but the data don't seem to be used innovatively or interestingly. This makes me wonder if the market is too small compared to the unicorn-level valuations most seem to aim/hope for. Kind of putting this out there because I'm a liveaboard s…

The market is small, there are existing competitors, and things change slowly. I also suspect that there isn't much value that startup could bring. I bet there are fancy products for fancy yachts.

There is a lot of open source going on. There is OpenCPN chart plotter. There is also NMEA OneNet which uses Ethernet so should support things that radars, plus make wiring easier.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#73

Post by serkandurusoy »

ianburrell wrote: post #72
serkandurusoy wrote: post #71

I haven't noticed many startups working on bringing modern tech to recreational sailing and cruising. Systems aboard a typical 35-50 foot sailboat produce interesting data streams, but the data don't seem to be used innovatively or interestingly. This makes me wonder if the market is too small compared to the unicorn-level valuations most seem to aim/hope for. Kind of putting this out there because I'm a liveaboard s…

The market is small, there are existing competitors, and things change slowly. I also suspect that there isn't much value that startup could bring. I bet there are fancy products for fancy yachts. There is a lot of open source going on. There is OpenCPN chart plotter. There is also NMEA OneNet which uses Ethernet so should support things that radars, plus make wiring easier.

Thanks, yes, I agree with all of those points.

Perhaps still a big enough space for a bootstrapped indie business, for lack of VC scale.

NMEA is quite interesting, though. Coupled with Czone for digital switching and power readings, I bet there is some interesting insight waiting to be discovered, one that can be monetized.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#74

Post by jabl »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #43
jp57 wrote: post #6

I've been getting into sailing, solely for the purpose of cruising and sailing for fun with no interest in racing. As I've started talking to sailors, I've realized that you need to gauge whether you're speaking with a racer or a cruiser. Racers will claim these are not mutually exclusive categories, because of course racers can also cruise. But racers who cruise will ultimately talk to you like racers. Racers are, a…

I've been seeing some modern junk rig refits on the great lakes the last few years, which really gives me hope about dedicated "get there when we get there" sailors. Those things are basically optimized for chilling the fuck out. Easy to sail (entire tacking maneuver is basically just throw the rudder over and duck), easy to reef, don't heel as hard, straightforward to mend the sail or running rigging on the fly. Onl…

There's a subset of sailors that are looking for the 'optimal' rig, and are trying out various alternative options. And some people want to be different just for the sake of it.

I'd argue the Bermuda rig is overwhelmingly the dominant choice for a number of good reasons. Yes, upwind performance is one of them, but it can also be a good choice from a simplicity and workload perspective.

Choose a boat without runners or checkstays, install an auto-tacking rail, and you too can tack just by turning the rudder. Various autoreefing systems (rolling jib/main) are likewise common these days.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#75

Post by giraffe_lady »

jabl wrote: post #74
giraffe_lady wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been seeing some modern junk rig refits on the great lakes the last few years, which really gives me hope about dedicated "get there when we get there" sailors. Those things are basically optimized for chilling the fuck out. Easy to sail (entire tacking maneuver is basically just throw the rudder over and duck), easy to reef, don't heel as hard, straightforward to mend the sail or running rigging on the fly. Onl…

There's a subset of sailors that are looking for the 'optimal' rig, and are trying out various alternative options. And some people want to be different just for the sake of it. I'd argue the Bermuda rig is overwhelmingly the dominant choice for a number of good reasons. Yes, upwind performance is one of them, but it can also be a good choice from a simplicity and workload perspective. Choose a boat without runners o…

Yeah this was a little tongue in cheek, bermuda honestly has excellent tradeoffs and can be pushed pretty far in a number of directions based on expertise, expected crew count, and goals. I respect it and it's by a huge margin what I've sailed the most. It's also the dominant standard and it's not even close, massive practical advantages from that.

The time I did sail on a junk rig though I was simply blown away by how easy and comfortable it was to sail it, esp singlehanded. Sure you can optimize a normal fractional rig sloop for that but it costs money and complexity. You can't beat the sailing ease of only needing one sail for everything and reefing from the cockpit.

The forces on the sail are completely different, you can use just nearly any fabric you can get a lot of cheaply, even fucking tyvek if you're ok with fugly. I was flabbergasted that the one I sailed on had done the mast refit, bought a sailrite & full canvas for right about the cost of a new main & jib. Ridiculous value.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#76

Post by stass »

kqr wrote: post #44
ModernMech wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I miss the days when a higher proportion of this Internet was content like this.

I prefer these days, when the absolute amount of information like this is higher, even if there's also higher amounts of junk. I can just not look at the junk today, compared to 25 years ago when the information I wanted only existed in a physical library in a different country.

Even still a lot of information is not online. I've been building a web sail trim simulator and had to hunt down a physical copy of the Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing book by Marchaj, because a lot of the formulas and models I needed to simulate the boat were not online, and what was online was often wrong.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#77

Post by stass »

lasermatts wrote: post #14

I've been super interested in sailing since moving to San Francisco and running around the marinas/Embarcadero. Did some digging and found a sailing school that I haven't asked about classes (yet) https://www.spinnaker-sailing.com There's even a school that offers boatbuilding lessons in Sausalito -- a bit too far/much of a time commitment for me! https://www.spauldingcenter.org/current-offerings

There is a great school called Modern Sailing School in Sausalito. I highly recommend taking a class from them. I took one in the past and they are great!

Will help you figure out if you are into sailing or not.

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#78

Post by stass »

amelius wrote: post #62
reddit_clone wrote: post #3

On a related note, I would love to see an animated explanation for how sail ships worked. As a fan of Hornblower series,I suspect most of the relevant details went over my head because I didn't understand this.

I'd love to have a simulator for a sailboat, preferably running in a browser.

I built one recently to mostly help myself visualize how sail trim worked and how various boat controls like mainsheet and backstay affected sail shapes, various forces and boat performance. It uses a physics-based VPP and I calibrated it against Catalina 36 polar charts, so should be pretty precise!

I plan to integrate the simulator with the sail trim guide I'm building to help people learn.

It's a WIP, but accessible at https://www.sailrhythm.com/

Happy to answer any questions!

Re: How a yacht works: sailboat physics and design

#79

Post by stass »

Zeetah wrote: post #46

I know nothing about sailing. I've been on a few sailboats. I love the idea of wind power - probably why I like flying remote control sailplanes. I would love to volunteer on someone's race/sail boat to get some experience. I'm happy to take the ASA introductory course or ? course. Any advice on how to move forward? I'm in the Seattle area.

Definitely recommend taking an introductory ASA 101/102/103 classes from a local school! Will help you decide if you are into it while having some fun.

This is how I started.

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