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Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

reuters.com

71–80 of 115 posts

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#71

Many people here were so confident a few days ago that the tariffs were just some 4d chess to get interest rates down, despite this not making any sense.

> despite this not making any sense.

Most commentary, for and against, has been exclusively on the economics, and from that perspective it makes little to no sense. But I've seen suggestions in a couple of places that there are relevant "national security" motivations, or to put it bluntly, a greater freedom to wage war - or at least to put oneself in a position where the threat of it would be more realistic. Decoupling the US economy from the rest of the world, but especially from China, makes sense if the strategic cost-benefit analysis sees a significant potential for war with that country. It's a commonplace of international relations, and intuitively obvious, that the more integrated are the economies of two countries, the less likely they are to start wars with each other (no doubt there are exceptions, but as a rule...). That doesn't have to mean anything imminent or indicate concrete plans on the part of US, but it's plausibly a factor in the overall calculations.

In fact, the economic interdependence of the US and China had seemed to be a big reason to remain hopeful that there wouldn't be a war between them, among other reasons of course. Reducing this interdependence seems to destabilize this situation. The unfortunate fact is that I can't see the US military establishment just peacefully allowing China to become more militarily powerful than itself. I'd be happy to hear other perspectives on this, I'm far from an expert and haven't seen this angle discussed much.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#72
post #67

Many people here were so confident a few days ago that the tariffs were just some 4d chess to get interest rates down, despite this not making any sense.

I'm not sure the current lot are capable of 2d chess. See penguins for example. Also see "I’d like to apologize to bricks for calling Peter Retarrdo dumber than a sack of bricks. That was so unfair to bricks." - E Musk

I'm afraid the President's critics aren't always capable of critical reading. Consider:

> Ten-year Treasury yields have risen 39 basis points to 4.38% this week alone as prices tumble.

Ok, but the recent high point for 10-year yields was 4.79% on January 13. Why is this 4.38% alarming? And why is a brief intraday spike above 4.5% (in a foreign market) newsworthy? This reads like someone was looking for bad news to report.

https://ycharts.com/indicators/10_year_treasury_rate

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#73

Just so I understand how this works… interest rates on these bonds are going up because of low demand for the bonds? How does this translate to interest rates set by the fed? Do these have to go up to match? .4%?

It's complicated but I think 10 year rates are going up mostly because people think there'll be inflation and your dollars will buy less in ten years than they would have without the tariffs. Certainly 100% tariffs on China will make stuff from China cost more in the shops.

There may also be some panic selling by speculators or people worried about their bonds - higher market rates makes the prices of bonds fall.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#74
post #4

> The 10-year U.S. Treasury yield , the globe's benchmark safe-haven anchor... The US government is ~37 trillion dollars in debt and rising. They're not going to do anything to cut spending until they hit a crisis so massive that they just can't spend any more. Which is going to have to be a shocker of a crisis given how they've handled the last couple. Raising taxes seems to be off the table too. While it is true th…

There's almost no repayment risk - the government will pay the dollars stipulated. There is an inflation risk - that the dollars will be worth less.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#75
>"You look at what happened to the curve last night, that was pretty extreme by anyone's metrics - 2s-10s steepening 30 basis points in a few hours, I've certainly never seen that,"

The 2s-10s spread tends to act a bit like brakes for the economy. The 10 year yield is largely down to inflation and the 2 year largely controlled by the federal reserve. They raise the 2 year above the 10 year to slow the economy if you are getting inflation and lower it if the economy looks like slowing too much and going into recession. This looks like people expecting recession.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#76

Many people here were so confident a few days ago that the tariffs were just some 4d chess to get interest rates down, despite this not making any sense.

> despite this not making any sense. Most commentary, for and against, has been exclusively on the economics, and from that perspective it makes little to no sense. But I've seen suggestions in a couple of places that there are relevant "national security" motivations, or to put it bluntly, a greater freedom to wage war - or at least to put oneself in a position where the threat of it would be more realistic. Decoupl…

I think the strategic angle is important, but I doubt it's part of a long-term plan to start a war with China. I think the more likely concern is that if the US becomes too dependent on Chinese manufacturing, China could impose sanctions on the US to control US foreign policy.

And a similar concern applies if the US lacks the manufacturing capability to wage wars with its own resources. Something we already saw that when we ran out of ammo because of the war in Ukraine.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#77
post #74
post #4

> The 10-year U.S. Treasury yield , the globe's benchmark safe-haven anchor... The US government is ~37 trillion dollars in debt and rising. They're not going to do anything to cut spending until they hit a crisis so massive that they just can't spend any more. Which is going to have to be a shocker of a crisis given how they've handled the last couple. Raising taxes seems to be off the table too. While it is true th…

There's almost no repayment risk - the government will pay the dollars stipulated. There is an inflation risk - that the dollars will be worth less.

Do a walk through of what you're implying there - you're suggesting the US is going to lump trillions of dollars worth of inflation losses onto the voting public to protect foreign investors. At a time when the public are extremely twitchy and sensitive to price rises.

There is a clear risk that the US will instead lump trillions of losses on foreign investors and attempt to protect the purchasing power of their voters. It isn't like they're fooling anyone either way - they borrowed a bunch and can't pay it back. They can pretend they paid it back but the markets are going to respond to the magnitude of the losses and not the excuses. The leadership may as well let the bulk of the damage fall on people who don't vote in US elections - there isn't any particular reason to do otherwise.

The US could choose to tank their own currency but it'd be more orderly and the incentives certainly could be aligned to formally default regardless.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#78
post #74
post #4

> The 10-year U.S. Treasury yield , the globe's benchmark safe-haven anchor... The US government is ~37 trillion dollars in debt and rising. They're not going to do anything to cut spending until they hit a crisis so massive that they just can't spend any more. Which is going to have to be a shocker of a crisis given how they've handled the last couple. Raising taxes seems to be off the table too. While it is true th…

There's almost no repayment risk - the government will pay the dollars stipulated. There is an inflation risk - that the dollars will be worth less.

[deleted]

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#79

There are several things at play. 1) Trump is playing a storyline. The Market place of ideas in America has one side which is under a monopoly. It sets its own prices, decides what information enters and exits, decides what the market SHOULD look like. It manages half the voting population. This is why “Trump does what he says” resonated. Previous lawmakers played the role on TV, but in back room deals, acted as if r…

One hole to poke into it ;-) There is the growing class of the working poor in the US, and that is something the better off seem to have been ignoring for a while. What I try to say is, that even the status quo ante Trump politics were already quite disconnected from most people's reality. Now Trump's new politics are different in that they negatively impact rich people's reality.

Globalists failed to take into account the anger that employment dislocation would generate.

'The labor market will reallocate to productive jobs' doesn't take into account the experience of having ones income security disappear as an industry is shipped overseas, then having to retrain into a new field.

And the US largely didn't fund that, at least in a meaningful, at scale, don't-piss-people-off way.

Those at the top reaped the benefits of free trade; those at the bottom suffered the pain.

Trump (the character) was voted in on the basis of that anger, something the Democrats never seemed to understand.

It'll be curious what the reaction is to serious economic pain in the midterms.

Re: Bond rout starting to sound market alarm bells

#80
post #75

>"You look at what happened to the curve last night, that was pretty extreme by anyone's metrics - 2s-10s steepening 30 basis points in a few hours, I've certainly never seen that," The 2s-10s spread tends to act a bit like brakes for the economy. The 10 year yield is largely down to inflation and the 2 year largely controlled by the federal reserve. They raise the 2 year above the 10 year to slow the economy if you…

That's an interesting point. The 2-year yield did drop noticeably on April 3rd, the day after the tariffs were announced. Do you think the Fed did that to offset the impact of tariffs?
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