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Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#71

Post by tgma »

MPSFounder wrote: post #58
tgma wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A legal permanent resident is by definition a national You just pulled this from your ass. Absolutely not true.

I stand corrected. US nationals refers to something else, but is sometimes used to include permanent residents alongside citizens. I am not familiar with the terminology, but my point stands. A legal permanent resident is very different from the situation you are citing, and I think if you believe they are not entitled to free speech (in particular, for offending a foreign country), we have a much bigger problem here…

The terminology makes all the difference, though. You cannot just handwave it away. A US National is not removable by the discretion of U.S. Secretary of State, but a LPR can be found deportable based on that. The law could not be more clear. This is not a First Amendment concern. You don't have to commit a crime or to be charged with one. Even your mere presence is enough to trigger the statute. You can debate if Rubio should exercise that right and vote for a different President to elect a different cabinet to execute the law differently, or to elect a different Congress to change the law, but to say he does not have the right or that it is vague is preposterous. It is just that some people are not aware of the details and may have a different expectation compared to the status quo.

If you don't like that status quo, that's fair enough, but that's not a proof of non-resilience. The system is supposed to operate based on some approximation of will of the people and it has been quite resilient in approximating it.

As for me, allow me to be skeptical of you having a coherent, well-thought-out alternative of an immigration system with all the consequences and corner cases covered, especially if you are not familiar with the basic terminology of the current one.

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#72

Post by Slava_Propanei »

dboreham wrote: post #60
MPSFounder wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The truth is much of it could have been prevented (court packing was one idea that might have been unpopular, but there are many other ideas that could have been acted upon). We live with consequences of failures of the Democratic party for the last decade. Had Ruth Ginsberg been pressured to retire after her numerous health issues, Roe v Wade would never have been overturned (it was a 1 vote swing). Had primaries oc…

Freedom and justice should not depend on these kind of game show tactics. The system should be more resilient. Unfortunately it isn't due to the culture and social norms of the country.

[dead]

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#73

Post by parineum »

simonw wrote: post #56
sjtgraham wrote: post #34

[flagged]

H1B is a dual-intent visa, which means holders are allowed to pursue permanent residency (upgrading them to an immigrant by the US legal definition) by applying for a green card. Most people use the term "immigrant" for people who have chosen to live in another country without considering the "non-immigrant" status of their visa.

Is there some rule that says other people aren't allowed to pursue a green card? That doesn't seem like a differentiator to me.

That's a real question, I have no idea how any of it really works in the practical sense.

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#74

Post by toomuchtodo »

smt88 wrote: post #66

It's ironic that Silicon Valley's CEOs are now getting exactly what their candidate promised them. Where is the pushback against this from Musk and Ellison?

“For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#75

Post by tgma »

jltsiren wrote: post #64
tgma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I was discussing the law, now we pivot to emotions? The "masked" guys immediately showed their badges if we are talking about the same incident. When you come to the US on a visa, you should not be under any illusions that is not the case. In fact, a US visa is not even guarantee of entry to the US as you are reminded when you get one. I am not aware if any other country behaves differently if they want a for…

In Finland (and I guess in some other European countries) deportation in itself is not a sufficient reason for arrest. Once you have been informed of the decision, you get some time to leave voluntarily, or to challenge the decision in the administrative court system. But you won't be arrested until the decision is final and you have failed to leave voluntarily, unless there are specific reasons to the contrary. And…

I believe they are free to challenge the decision in an administrative court in the US (under Attorney General, not an Article III court) but they can be arrested. In any case, most countries would reserve the rights to kick you out. That's the deal you make with the country when you choose to get their visa and go there.

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#76

Post by wahnfrieden »

ok_dad wrote: post #38
toomuchtodo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport? No snark intended, this is a genuine question based on all available evidence. I don’t endorse such action at all, but we are existing in exceptional times and the discussion is important. “If you stay, what are you getting yourself into?” is a serious question to ask and to manage the risk around.

> What happens if and when ICE starts rounding visa holders up to deport? Read the news, it's already happening. One video I saw showed a woman (a PhD student in a legal visa) being surrounded by plainclothes officers with neck gaiters over their faces and they took her away in an unmarked car. Her family hired a lawyer who still hasn't contacted her though they claim she's in a specific facility in Mississippi. Her…

A judge ordered she not be taken out of Massachusetts. It was ignored

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#77

Post by tgma »

cameldrv wrote: post #68
tgma wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I was discussing the law, now we pivot to emotions? The "masked" guys immediately showed their badges if we are talking about the same incident. When you come to the US on a visa, you should not be under any illusions that is not the case. In fact, a US visa is not even guarantee of entry to the US as you are reminded when you get one. I am not aware if any other country behaves differently if they want a for…

You would normally at least be entitled to due process. My understanding is that Trump is citing a law that allows the President to deport nationals of a country we are at war with without due process, except we aren’t at war with Turkey.

I believe you are mixing up different cases. That is not the statute used at all for the Turkey case. The Alien Enemies Act you are referring to was exclusively used for the designated foreign terrorist organizations (i.e. TdA & MS13; Venezuelans who went to El Salvador prison).

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#78

Post by wahnfrieden »

parineum wrote: post #73
simonw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B is a dual-intent visa, which means holders are allowed to pursue permanent residency (upgrading them to an immigrant by the US legal definition) by applying for a green card. Most people use the term "immigrant" for people who have chosen to live in another country without considering the "non-immigrant" status of their visa.

Is there some rule that says other people aren't allowed to pursue a green card? That doesn't seem like a differentiator to me. That's a real question, I have no idea how any of it really works in the practical sense.

TN can’t

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#79

Post by jasonjayr »

tgma wrote: post #53
jasonjayr wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's discretionary. But to (a) Revoke it with no warning (b) Instantly making your presense illegal, and you a criminal, and due to your new criminal status(c) immediatly abducting you by masked, unidentified "officers" in an official capacity and sending you on a plane anywhere but here, seems to, I don't know? "stir the pot" as you say? These revocations could be done far more graciously than they are. It cert…

I mean, I was discussing the law, now we pivot to emotions? The "masked" guys immediately showed their badges if we are talking about the same incident. When you come to the US on a visa, you should not be under any illusions that is not the case. In fact, a US visa is not even guarantee of entry to the US as you are reminded when you get one. I am not aware if any other country behaves differently if they want a for…

You started with "Stir the pot in the media", and brought emotions into it.

But the point still stands. Legal does not mean moral. And there is a legal obligation to represent the will of all the people of the country, not just those that elected you.

Clearly, the law needs to spell out exactly what legally needs to be done in the case of an expideient deportation, so it codifies some sense of common morality.

But to your point of resilience: The resilience breaks down when people lose their faith in it. Why trust a system that can act aribtrairily like this? Do we really want our guests to fear that speaking in solidarity with nearly half the country is grounds to be treated like a criminal, and be subject immediate and expedient deportation? That's not the way a "great" country behaves.

Re: Tech companies are telling immigrant employees on visas not to leave the U.S.

#80

Post by sashank_1509 »

parineum wrote: post #73
simonw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

H1B is a dual-intent visa, which means holders are allowed to pursue permanent residency (upgrading them to an immigrant by the US legal definition) by applying for a green card. Most people use the term "immigrant" for people who have chosen to live in another country without considering the "non-immigrant" status of their visa.

Is there some rule that says other people aren't allowed to pursue a green card? That doesn't seem like a differentiator to me. That's a real question, I have no idea how any of it really works in the practical sense.

Yes, there are visas Like L1 Visa where you can work in US but never apply for a Green Card, and this is considered a non immigrant visa while H1b is considered a dual intent visa. Which is why regularly people who come in on L1, separately participate in the H1b lottery!
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