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Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

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Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#71

Post by tgma »

divan wrote: post #70
tgma wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both advocate deregulation and increasing economic growth. Of course you can debate the difference at the margin ad nauseam, something the authors are doing more authoritatively than you and I could on every single podcast on the planet, trying hard to differentiate themselves from libertarians that preceded them decades ago. I remain unconvinced.

> Both advocate ... increasing economic growth Does anybody ever advocate economic decline?

I gave a concrete example to the affirmative to a different commenter, so strictly speaking, yes. Arguably many European politicians don't say this but advocate for policies whose immediate logical conclusion is stagnation or decreasing growth. One example to demonstrate the point is banning fossil fuels (not debating the merits of it, but to demonstrate the point). In fact, the writing of Abundance is implicitly acknowledging such policies are in place.

But that was not the main point: there is a difference in basing your ideology on top of that pillar and betting the farm on it ala Abundance vs. just thinking economic growth is a nice to have blessing.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#72

Post by jaypinho »

tptacek wrote: post #12

This is a downright weird review. The crux of the complaint against Klein's book is that it's about values and avoids specific policy prescriptions. The lack of those policy arguments leads the reviewer to question Klein's commitment. But there's nobody in all of American political discourse that complaint falls more flat on than Ezra Klein. The review draws a comparison between Abundance and Marc Andreesen's "Time T…

This is a weird response - that's not what the review says at all. (I should know. I wrote it.) I'm also a YIMBY - although, as a renter, it doesn't exactly take any moral courage.

As I state clearly in the review, I share Klein and Thompson's view of the housing issue and I called that part the strongest section of the book.

My point is that what the book calls "abundance" is an incoherent mishmash of ideologically incoherent anecdotes. It's not a policy framework and it's not an agenda. So what is it?

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#73

Post by energy123 »

xnx wrote: post #53
kuboble wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is exactly the issue. It's not the wannabe home owners who are protesting but the current home owners who are rightly afraid that it will immensely reduce value of their homes.

Would it reduce the value of their homes? My property would be a lot more if it were legal to tear it down and put up a 10 unit apartment building. I think the complaint is more than they don't want their neighbors houses replaced by apartment buildings.

It would, but I believe the cause and effect is roundabout.

The first thing to go down will be rental yields, because those are more directly and immediately impacted by real market forces (number of renters versus available housing stock on the rental market), instead of speculation or the wealth effect or chasing a store of value, which are factors that drive the price of housing ownership but don't drive rents.

After rental yields decline, housing as an asset class will be less lucrative and higher risk compared to the cost of capital, which then causes an unwind as investors move to other asset classes.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#74

Post by jaypinho »

gcanyon wrote: post #23

I've only read maybe 30 pages of the book, but I think the article misses the point (I hope) the book is making: there are regulations that serve a purpose, and regulations that don't, and we can, to at least some extent, tell the difference based on the regulations themselves or their impact on past projects. If that's true, then we can shed regulations, speed the process of government, and make it more effective at…

I think you'd get near-universal agreement that some regulations somewhere are ineffective and/or counterproductive. If that's all the book is attempting to achieve, it's an extremely modest goal IMO.

The problem is getting that same level of agreement about specific regulations - or, failing that, making a strong case for a specific reason why a regulation that many people think is necessary and good is actually bad. But Klein and Thompson, for the most part, avoid doing this.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#75

Post by jaypinho »

tptacek wrote: post #26
pj_mukh wrote: post #9

“ Okay. So the abundance agenda calls for an expert-laden, big-government apparatus to build high-speed rail, and a lean skeleton crew that outsources all the key logistics and execution layers to the private sector for a mass vaccination campaign. It’s difficult to detect a usable framework here.” Having read about 4 different critiques of the book, this maybe closest to a well thought out one. However, it still giv…

The "Abundance Agenda" doesn't demand an "expert-laden big-government apparatus" or a harnessing of private enterprise; it demands that if we're going to spend tens of billions on an HSR project, that the project actually work. The review jazz-hands around the fact that Klein is obviously right about California HSR, and he's obviously right about Operation Warp Speed.

It takes no effort at all to see that CA HSR is an unmitigated disaster. It takes much more effort to figure out a coherent policy common denominator that shames CA for outsourcing the project to consultants while praising OWS for doing the same.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#76

Post by energy123 »

kuboble wrote: post #38
energy123 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who don't want to live in density, the counter intuitive thing is that it'll be easier to buy a single detached house if you allow more condos, especially 2/3 bedroom units, because there will be less competition. It's the pigeon hole principle.

But this is exactly the issue. It's not the wannabe home owners who are protesting but the current home owners who are rightly afraid that it will immensely reduce value of their homes.

Your comment didn't deserve to be downvoted. This might not be the primary factor behind local opposition, but it is a factor in why it's difficult for state or federal politicians to enact real reform, even something like amending tax policy. Two thirds of the population don't see the housing crisis as a crisis, for them it's either a housing bonanza, or it's something that they don't want to see happen but are afraid of being personally injured if it's fixed due to their leverage being multiple times their annual income.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#77

Post by tptacek »

jaypinho wrote: post #75
tptacek wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "Abundance Agenda" doesn't demand an "expert-laden big-government apparatus" or a harnessing of private enterprise; it demands that if we're going to spend tens of billions on an HSR project, that the project actually work. The review jazz-hands around the fact that Klein is obviously right about California HSR, and he's obviously right about Operation Warp Speed.

It takes no effort at all to see that CA HSR is an unmitigated disaster. It takes much more effort to figure out a coherent policy common denominator that shames CA for outsourcing the project to consultants while praising OWS for doing the same.

Klein notes that one project is a dismal failure and the other a stunning success. Both are true statements, and there's really nothing you can say to make that not true. The idea that there's a single coherent set of policy prescriptions that gets you reliably to the successes and away from the failures is exactly the thing Klein doesn't claim to be offering --- in fact, you open your review by complaining about exactly that.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#78

Post by tptacek »

jaypinho wrote: post #72
tptacek wrote: post #12

This is a downright weird review. The crux of the complaint against Klein's book is that it's about values and avoids specific policy prescriptions. The lack of those policy arguments leads the reviewer to question Klein's commitment. But there's nobody in all of American political discourse that complaint falls more flat on than Ezra Klein. The review draws a comparison between Abundance and Marc Andreesen's "Time T…

This is a weird response - that's not what the review says at all. (I should know. I wrote it.) I'm also a YIMBY - although, as a renter, it doesn't exactly take any moral courage. As I state clearly in the review, I share Klein and Thompson's view of the housing issue and I called that part the strongest section of the book. My point is that what the book calls "abundance" is an incoherent mishmash of ideologically…

What exactly does Marc Andreesen have to do with Klein and Thompson's advocacy for zoning reform?

The answer to your question is simple. In fact, you dance around it in your review! The politics of reform are about navigating the disagreements in the Democratic coalition. Indeed! The point of the book is to present a positive vision of what a Democratic coalition focused around an agenda of demonstrated competency would look like and accomplish. The book is about the persuasive effort.

It doesn't seem plausible that you'd be so unfamiliar with Klein that you didn't know he records one of the most popular policy-driven shows in the country.

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#79

Post by tptacek »

jaypinho wrote: post #74
gcanyon wrote: post #23

I've only read maybe 30 pages of the book, but I think the article misses the point (I hope) the book is making: there are regulations that serve a purpose, and regulations that don't, and we can, to at least some extent, tell the difference based on the regulations themselves or their impact on past projects. If that's true, then we can shed regulations, speed the process of government, and make it more effective at…

I think you'd get near-universal agreement that some regulations somewhere are ineffective and/or counterproductive. If that's all the book is attempting to achieve, it's an extremely modest goal IMO. The problem is getting that same level of agreement about specific regulations - or, failing that, making a strong case for a specific reason why a regulation that many people think is necessary and good is actually bad…

The book identifies a problem that you yourself agree with: the Democratic coalition can't build anything, can't satisfy the needs of its constituents, is losing those constituents to Republican states that can, and is losing the faith of the electorate. It also offers a diagnosis (or rather, a set of them): the unintended consequences of localism, a legislative and regulatory system that oriented more than checking boxes with every faction of the coalition than having coherent goals like "house people" or "deploy clean energy", and an unwillingness of the coalition to revisit the decisions of previous generations in light of current challenges.

Do you think any of these diagnoses are wrong? Or are you just bored by them?

Re: Move fast, break things: A review of Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson

#80

Post by jaypinho »

tptacek wrote: post #78
jaypinho wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird response - that's not what the review says at all. (I should know. I wrote it.) I'm also a YIMBY - although, as a renter, it doesn't exactly take any moral courage. As I state clearly in the review, I share Klein and Thompson's view of the housing issue and I called that part the strongest section of the book. My point is that what the book calls "abundance" is an incoherent mishmash of ideologically…

What exactly does Marc Andreesen have to do with Klein and Thompson's advocacy for zoning reform? The answer to your question is simple. In fact, you dance around it in your review! The politics of reform are about navigating the disagreements in the Democratic coalition. Indeed! The point of the book is to present a positive vision of what a Democratic coalition focused around an agenda of demonstrated competency wo…

What does his podcast have to do with anything? I'm reviewing his book, not his entire bibliography.

As I stated already, the vision is incoherent. It's fine to cherrypick specific anecdotes as examples of competent governance. But if, for example, one of the stories is about how outsourcing large infrastructure projects led to its demise while doing the same for a vaccine logistics project was the cause of its success, this isn't really much of a vision at all, is it?

You say the point is to show what "an agenda of demonstrated competency would look like and accomplish." So where is that agenda?

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