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B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

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Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#71

Post by pilif »

We're working since 2001 on a b2b software. While it might seem boring, it's not in the least (minus some rare low points, but you get these everywhere).

It's also very rewarding to see users be productive with the software and be grateful for making their lives easier. In fact, many of the end users are to this day computer illiterates and making great software they can use is a very interesting challenge.

Also the technical stuff. Just because it's b2b doesn't mean you can't make it interesting for you. Whatever new technology comes around, I make it a point to try it out and apply it in production where it helps.

We've done AJAX before it was called that. We've been running node.js since the 0.2 days and we've solved interesting scaling problems.

There is nothing we can't do that makers of consumer products can do. The difference is that we are getting paid handsomely ever since and that we don't have to deal with advertisers or, god forbid, VCs.

Thanks mainly to our product Switzerland was and still is one of the countries with the highest percentage of electronic orders among dentists (I only have numbers there. The restaurants numbers might be even bigger).

Combine that with the cool technical challenges to solve and you are left with a very interesting job that just never gets old.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#72

Post by jacques_chester »

jsiarto wrote: post #6

We're a B2B shop and have been profitable from day one. Sometimes it takes a while to get paid from the big guys, but once you're in, cash flow is great. There are some downsides (control, last minute BS, corporate things)--but it seems to be easier to get companies to part with their cash than your neighbor or suite-mate.

The secret to B2B is that it's almost never somebody's actual personal money.

If I as the manager approve the $5000 WooFiz 7 Platinum purchase, I might feel a some concern to ensure that the ROI is defensible.

But that's it. Because it's not my money. If WooFiz turns out to be junk ... well, that sucks. But I'm not personally out of pocket.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#73

Post by jacques_chester »

pilif wrote: post #71

We're working since 2001 on a b2b software. While it might seem boring, it's not in the least (minus some rare low points, but you get these everywhere). It's also very rewarding to see users be productive with the software and be grateful for making their lives easier. In fact, many of the end users are to this day computer illiterates and making great software they can use is a very interesting challenge. Also the…

I agree that solving people's pain points is one of the best parts of doing enterprise-y stuff.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#74

Post by DRMacIver »

So I've done a B2B company before and am doing one now (current place isn't intrinsically B2B but that's our main focus. It's certainly not something normal consumers would use).

I think this understates what incredibly hard work selling B2B can be. Large companies will pay you a lot of money, but are ridiculously high maintenance - they expect custom work on your product (often of the "Can you integrate it into our ActiveDirectory/Exchange/etc" form) and the sales process to them is incredibly long.

Small companies on the other hand are often strapped for cash and have weirdly distorted views of the value of their time - If what you're selling them is something they can "do now" by spending 3 hours of an employee per day it can make it very hard to convince them to pay you at a rate you'll be able to sustain a profit on.

Neither of these are impossible to overcome of course. People can and do do extremely well with B2B businesses. I just want to point out that there are real problems with selling B2B as well, and that it's not nearly as easy as it might sound.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#75

Post by dasil003 »

IanMechura wrote: post #54
mattmanser wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

Setting up a challenger to QuickBooks does sound dull. Setting up a challenger to SAP on the other hand does not sound dull. Wanna see a cool B2B company? Check out a tool called CyberArk.

> Setting up a challenger to QuickBooks does sound dull.

FWIW I find Freshbooks to be a pretty exciting product as a user. I'm sure I would enjoy working on it as a developer, at least for a while.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#76

Post by dasil003 »

maayank wrote: post #21
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

The problem is how to get exposure to B2B processes as a software developer. Unless you have previous work experience as a sales guy/marketing/inventory procurement/etc. or a MBA or already developing B2B tools, how can you learn about the needs and opportunities?

This is where a business co-founder is just as valuable as a technical co-founder. The trick is that business co-founder has to have equal respect for technical crafts of programming and design. If they also have startup experience, or at least good intuition about where to focus when you have extremely limited resources, that's gold right there.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#77

Post by Bill_Dimm »

jacques_chester wrote: post #70
0x0 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I parsed his "something's gone horribly wrong" as to mean "wrong with the accounting laws in this country", not "wrong with the software development".

Law is complex because the world is complex. We're talking about "essential" complexity; it exists in the domain and it can't be wished away.

I have to disagree. Law is complex largely because politicians need to feel like they are doing something. They make changes so they can claim in their next campaign that they've improved things. They make changes to benefit their likely donors/voters. The cruft keeps piling up and it rarely gets wiped away.

Consider tax-advantaged retirement savings. Why do we have: traditional IRA, Roth IRA, SEP IRA, SIMPLE IRA, 401k, Roth 401k, and 403b, all with different requirements and different benefits? The need to have a reasonable amount of savings when you retire is universal, so why this complicated mess? Why are two people doing the same job at two different companies able to save dramatically different amounts based on whether or not their employer chooses to offer a 401k? Why force every taxpayer to do a 10-line (or whatever it is) calculation to determine eligibility to for an IRA just so we can prohibit a few rich people from having a benefit (hint: it would be a lot easier for everyone to make it universally available and just bump the rich people's tax bracket by a hair if you really feel the need to wipe out the pittance in tax savings that they would obtain). This isn't necessary complexity, it is pointless stupidity that we all suffer for (except for the accountants that gain employment from it).

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#78

Post by jacques_chester »

Bill_Dimm wrote: post #77
jacques_chester wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law is complex because the world is complex. We're talking about "essential" complexity; it exists in the domain and it can't be wished away.

I have to disagree. Law is complex largely because politicians need to feel like they are doing something. They make changes so they can claim in their next campaign that they've improved things. They make changes to benefit their likely donors/voters. The cruft keeps piling up and it rarely gets wiped away. Consider tax-advantaged retirement savings. Why do we have: traditional IRA, Roth IRA, SEP IRA, SIMPLE IRA, 40…

Sure, that's one source of complexity in legislation.

But really, seriously, the world is complex. Every day people stumble on combinations of circumstances that have never occurred before in human history. Some fraction of those people get into an argument about what happens next. Some fraction of those go to a judge and ask her what the answer is.

The judge takes the existing principles, cogitates a bit, then extends the case law to cover the new scenario based on analogy with older scenarios.

This creates a new piece of law. It's never been seen before. But it might turn out to have profound consequences.

Before switching to computer science, I studied law. It's complicated because people are complicated.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#79

Post by zzzeek »

lmm wrote: post #69
ef4 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense. The actual act of programming is completely agnostic to what the bytes you're processing mean. They could be the most boring data in the world, but if you're trying to juggle enough of them at once, at high reliability, you're going to end up with very deep technical challenges. I'm sure somebody probably said "why would you want to write code for an online book store? That's so technically shall…

There are good and bad programming tasks in all fields. But the kind of "complex simple software" the GP talks about, where the actual task is mind-bogglingly simple but there are hundreds of edge cases in the requirements, is a lot less fun to write than something with more cohesive requirements (i.e. where you don't have to match what an existing business does)

there's a challenge in how do you structure and organize edge-case logic such that the core application design needn't be entirely redesigned every time a new requirement is revealed or an existing one needs to be altered. When the client comes to you with changes in requirements, having built an architecture that can turn on a dime is a rewarding experience.

Re: B2B Is Unsexy, and I Know It

#80

Post by ThomPete »

mattmanser wrote: post #30
mindcrime wrote: post #3

Good stuff, and I agree with almost 100% of that. The only thing I take exception to is the (seemingly) implicit suggestion that "sexy" is defined by what college kids like: And that’s true. B2B is unsexy in that I don’t build things that my college friends want to use. Nah... if you're doing sexy technology, it's sexy even if not a single college kid has ever heard of it. I'd encourage everyone to NOT buy into the H…

I completely disagree with this, this isn't an echo chamber, and no-one's buying into that ethos. Let's be frank, b2b is boring as shit. It's not even vaguely interesting. The only challenge to setting up the ultimate competitor to Sage/Quickbooks is that it's so mind numbingly dull. B2B programming is an utter pile of mind-numbingly boring crap. It's not sexy because it's incredibly simple with a colossal amount of…

So Github is boring? 37Signals is boring? Heroku is boring?, Photoshop, Maya, LogicPro is boring?

There sure are boring things in B2B just as there are in B2C, but there are plenty of B2B business that are great fun and challenging as hell.

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