Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

goravel.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 170 posts

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#71

Post by cshepher »

evantbyrne wrote: post #68
Daril wrote: post #20

I'm not a fan of the complexity added by this and other similar frameworks. PHP and Go are very different languages, so trying to replicate the same concepts for one language to another I don't think it is a good idea. One of the things I would discard would be the use of an ORM library : every library adds another level of complexity and doesn't allow to see what is happening when the SQL statements are built. In my…

Anti-ORM sentiment is a senior developer red flag. It indicates pretty clearly that an engineer views their work more as an art project, rather than valuing achieving the actual business goals in any reasonable time frame.

Or it can mean that the engineer is tired of rewriting ORM generated queries into performant queries.

Sometimes it is better to use 'explain plan' once rather than cleaning up a generated sql filled with outer joins, table scans, and difficult to understand variable names.

The ORM code in this case can look more "pristine" but can cause the app to fail in production. If you are using createNativeQuery everywhere, what is the point of an ORM?

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#72

Post by capevace »

bborud wrote: post #35
weatherlite wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure there's a Go equivalent of Laravel, so not sure which tooling you suggest people adopt. If I want an all inclusive MVC (or similar) web development framework with all batteries included - why not build a Go Laravel? Python has Django Java has Spring (among others) C# has asp.net Ruby has Rails PHP has Laravel What does Go have?

Go has a simpler approach that encourages you to express yourself more directly, does away with heavy frameworks that take longer to learn than the language itself, and it encourages you to structure solutions in mechanical sympathy with the problem rather than start with a solution and then try to adapt the problem to a given solution. Big frameworks are extremely limiting. They also make escape harder when you real…

I‘d encourage you to seriously give Laravel a shot.

I’d fundamentally disagree on it being harder to learn than the language itself.

> You can always do better when you start with the domain you are solving and work from there rather than trying to adapt your domain to some generic solution.

I’d even agree! In my view this as a reason to go pro-Laravel and similar opinionated frameworks. They allow you to focus on what actually matters, which is your specific business logic.

Define your data models and the rest follows automatically. Use API Platform to automatically generate a REST API from just your models. Need custom logic in there? Use middleware or define your own routes. You’re really not being hindered by the framework in any way I can think of.

Laravel is truly a beast and IMO not comparable to older Java frameworks.

You don’t have to use these features tho. You don’t have to use the ORM and you could even write your own routing if you really wanted to. To me, this is what makes a good framework: providing everything out of the box for 80/20 solutions and provide appropriate escape hatches if you ever need to do something entirely custom.

Want a react frontend? Use Intertia and get started writing UI and interactivity instead of setting up data flows. Want automatic backends? Use Filament and get Schema-based forms and tables for free.

But I have yet to encounter web app use-cases that go beyond of what Laravel could handle.

Something like this in the Go world would make a great addition, provided there are alternatives and escape hatches present (idk if that’s the case).

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#73

Post by ayuhito »

9dev wrote: post #43
ayuhito wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard library. It’s honestly feature rich enough to do most things that the only other dependencies we really need to pull in is some third-party SDKs (e.g. AWS) and our database driver.

I assume you have never used Django or Rails or Laravel then. With these, you get a web application with routing, middleware, schema validation, database connections, an ORM, authentication, sessions, job queues, email sending, distributed caching, dependency injection, logging,secret handling, view template rendering, websockets, metrics, and much more—right after the installation, set up with conventions allowing o…

Almost everything you listed already exists in the standard library.

And for the little that’s not, such as an ORM, there are many third party libraries available if you want to go down that path although it’s not necessary.

There’s nice things about a lot of these frameworks for sure, like ActiveRecord, but you usually just learn the patterns in Go and roll with it. The standard library has its own consistent style.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#74

Post by Taikonerd »

anta40 wrote: post #24
Daril wrote: post #20

I'm not a fan of the complexity added by this and other similar frameworks. PHP and Go are very different languages, so trying to replicate the same concepts for one language to another I don't think it is a good idea. One of the things I would discard would be the use of an ORM library : every library adds another level of complexity and doesn't allow to see what is happening when the SQL statements are built. In my…

What would you use if ORM is to be avoided? Perhaps something like https://github.com/sqlc-dev/sqlc ?

I would say: SQL is a DSL for interacting with DBs. If it's not doing what you want, consider a different DSL, like Gel, SurrealDB, or PRQL.

These also have the advantage of being programming language-agnostic.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#75

Post by gf000 »

KronisLV wrote: post #61
mkl95 wrote: post #32

It seems like every middling company out there wants to bolt in popular architecture from other languages into Go, particularly Java enterprise patterns. Why not use the actual language or framework your engineers like instead?

> Why not use the actual language or framework your engineers like instead? Consistency and predictability, but with a more convenient technology underneath. I don't want to mess around with JDK runtimes or .NET. I don't want to experiment with various static packaging techniques and wonder whether any sort of reflection will be incompatible with that or any of the large frameworks that pre-date it will work. The run…

Well, just use the new generation of "microservice frameworks" in Java.

I personally believe that it is a much better language and ecosystem, and wouldn't bother using Go which has way more boilerplate, has pretty bad expressivity (so that libraries/frameworks will suffer from a usability perspective, e.g. look at JOOQs, a completely type-safe SQL query builder) for negligible benefits.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#76

Post by evantbyrne »

cshepher wrote: post #71
evantbyrne wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-ORM sentiment is a senior developer red flag. It indicates pretty clearly that an engineer views their work more as an art project, rather than valuing achieving the actual business goals in any reasonable time frame.

Or it can mean that the engineer is tired of rewriting ORM generated queries into performant queries. Sometimes it is better to use 'explain plan' once rather than cleaning up a generated sql filled with outer joins, table scans, and difficult to understand variable names. The ORM code in this case can look more "pristine" but can cause the app to fail in production. If you are using createNativeQuery everywhere, wha…

The author presented their opinion as broadly stroked general advice and in that context it is poor. And, specifically regarding database/sql, creating a bunch of pointers to scan values into for every query you write is the definition of insanity in all but the most performance sensitive applications. We're talking microseconds (or even nanoseconds in some instances) on an operation typically measured in milliseconds.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#77

Post by tkiolp4 »

cshepher wrote: post #71
evantbyrne wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-ORM sentiment is a senior developer red flag. It indicates pretty clearly that an engineer views their work more as an art project, rather than valuing achieving the actual business goals in any reasonable time frame.

Or it can mean that the engineer is tired of rewriting ORM generated queries into performant queries. Sometimes it is better to use 'explain plan' once rather than cleaning up a generated sql filled with outer joins, table scans, and difficult to understand variable names. The ORM code in this case can look more "pristine" but can cause the app to fail in production. If you are using createNativeQuery everywhere, wha…

80% of the time, the queries the ORM produces are just fine. For the rest 20% left, I code them myself (I think senior engineers now how to distinguish these two scenarios). Now, what I don’t want to code myself is the transformation between rows and objects… that’s what an ORM is for.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#78

Post by gf000 »

bborud wrote: post #35
weatherlite wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure there's a Go equivalent of Laravel, so not sure which tooling you suggest people adopt. If I want an all inclusive MVC (or similar) web development framework with all batteries included - why not build a Go Laravel? Python has Django Java has Spring (among others) C# has asp.net Ruby has Rails PHP has Laravel What does Go have?

Go has a simpler approach that encourages you to express yourself more directly, does away with heavy frameworks that take longer to learn than the language itself, and it encourages you to structure solutions in mechanical sympathy with the problem rather than start with a solution and then try to adapt the problem to a given solution. Big frameworks are extremely limiting. They also make escape harder when you real…

But CRUD is a solved problem, and don't forget about essential complexity, which can never be avoided.

Reinventing that basic logic takes a lot of code and time for a bug-ridden, worse, half-implementation. And on top it will be completely home-grown, any new hire will have to learn it from the barely existing internal "documentation" that wasn't touched in years - making not only initial development multiple times more costly, but every subsequent maintainance as well.

Meanwhile I can just add 3 annotations in Spring/RoR/Django and have solved the problem in a way that a competent new hire will instantly be familiar with.

Also, even the supposed benefits are questionable at best - mechanical sympathy? Like, most of these frameworks sit on top of a highly efficient C web server that just calls some business code for nanoseconds and that's all the "overhead". Python and ruby backends are all over the web and they perform completely fine, even though these are interpreted languages. Java/c# won't even have that problem. I have seen plenty terribly performaning home-grown solution which were designed by a "smart" software astronaut - it's almost like writing a proper web server is a different skill set than typical CRUD business apps.

And lastly, Go feels more productive because it is chock-full of boilerplate. So you can type and type and feel you are so productive, meanwhile in another language you would have just added an annotation and 2 lines and called it a day - it's just a psychological "trick". And "libraries that are easy to compose"? Like, which language has an ecosystem with libraries that are hard to compose? What tools do Go have that would aid in that? I would argue that a more expressive language have way better tools to help with code composition, wouldn't it?

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#79

Post by tonyhb »

todotask wrote: post #57
bborud wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you go into a bit more detail about what became challenging and what Astro helped you solve?

At first, my goal was to go pure with vanilla JavaScript and CSS, hand-coding Echo routing, authentication, secure cookies, etc., using Go libraries—and I did just that. But as a solo developer managing both backend (Go + SQLC) and frontend (vanilla JS + CSS), it became overwhelming. My co-founders had no concrete feature roadmap, throwing in whatever they thought was good, and our UI/UX designer was stuck with a bug…

This is an LLM response if ever there was one.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#80

Post by 7bit »

tonyhb wrote: post #79
todotask wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first, my goal was to go pure with vanilla JavaScript and CSS, hand-coding Echo routing, authentication, secure cookies, etc., using Go libraries—and I did just that. But as a solo developer managing both backend (Go + SQLC) and frontend (vanilla JS + CSS), it became overwhelming. My co-founders had no concrete feature roadmap, throwing in whatever they thought was good, and our UI/UX designer was stuck with a bug…

This is an LLM response if ever there was one.

Wgats your Point?
Post reply on HN