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Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

micahflee.com

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Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#71

Post by rightbyte »

dmos62 wrote: post #68
mjfl wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"War against Ukraine"? That's the first time I've heard that phrased that way from a non-Russian source. What have you been reading? Aren't you whitewashing Russia's invasion of Ukraine? And, to call Azov an extremist group, or to liken them to people who literally tried to overthrow the US government, or to ISIS, that is plain disturbed.

> to call Azov an extremist group, [...], that is plain disturbed.

Really? "Extremist brigade" then? Their isnignia is the one of 2.nd SS division Deutschland, cleverly mirrored. They were on the US sanction list.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#72

Post by defrost »

mjfl wrote: post #59
forgetfreeman wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bunch of claims made there with no evidence supplied to support any of them, and especially nothing linking domestic terrorism with run of the mill Trump supporters, although it's quite telling that one would make that conceptual leap, ostensibly to fuel some sense of personal grievance? Based on first hand experience on the fringes of white supremacist organizations over the decades I'm totally unsurprised to hear…

[flagged]

When "a congressman" is Jim Jordan people are going to want a reliable evidence based source instead.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#73

Post by pjc50 »

getlawgdon wrote: post #20

In a dump like this, why would anyone truat that any given part of it is authentic? I could tell some great lies by embedding disinformation in a disseminated data dump like this.

It can also be disinformation by selectively editing out portions, so everything you see is authentic but the overall picture is not.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#74

Post by pjc50 »

noneeeed wrote: post #56
lurk2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both organizations have had reputations for being honeypots as early as 2016. There have been a number of instances of federal agents becoming embedded in the organizational structures of groups like this (see e.g. the Malheur Wildlife Standoff and the plot to assassinate Gretchen Whitmer). Groups of this scale tend to fall into one of three categories: 1) They are honeypots set up by policing and / or intelligence a…

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

Bob Lambert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lambert_(undercover_police... was one of the people responsible for the 'McLibel' leaflet that turned into the UK's longest running libel case.

These days it looks to me like Extinction Rebellion (XR) are being run by spies, since all their activities are so counter-productive in terms of making people hate environmentalism.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#76

Post by noneeeed »

pjc50 wrote: post #74
noneeeed wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

Bob Lambert https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Lambert_(undercover_police... was one of the people responsible for the 'McLibel' leaflet that turned into the UK's longest running libel case. These days it looks to me like Extinction Rebellion (XR) are being run by spies, since all their activities are so counter-productive in terms of making people hate environmentalism.

I am convinced Just Stop Oil are. Everything they do simply makes people angry at the environmental movement.

XR seem to be trying to distance themselves, but it's too late, I don't think most people distinguish between them.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#77

Post by Spooky23 »

noneeeed wrote: post #57
thinkingemote wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth pointing out that this pattern is kind of common. As here, these agents are often at the very top. Almost all Organisations of Interest will be compromised at the leadership level. It's something most grass roots activists don't feel intuitively at all. They look for spies among their own level but it's almost always going to be the organisers, the helpers, the ones with the van, the one that can prin…

As I mentioned in another comment, one of the most amazing examples of this was the British Army/MI5 mole inside the IRA, Freddie Scappaticci, codenamed Steaknife. He was a leading member of the IRA's internal security team. It really feels counterintuitive that someone who has got to the top would be the one to turn, but it also makes sense that they would be the one's targetted.

They have the most to lose personally. The rank and file can slither away, but once you’re up in the organization it’s hard to pretend that you’re an innocent.

People attracted to this stuff tend to be fairly dysfunctional as well. Even in successful revolutionary movements, the early people always get purged.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#78

Post by dmos62 »

rightbyte wrote: post #71
dmos62 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"War against Ukraine"? That's the first time I've heard that phrased that way from a non-Russian source. What have you been reading? Aren't you whitewashing Russia's invasion of Ukraine? And, to call Azov an extremist group, or to liken them to people who literally tried to overthrow the US government, or to ISIS, that is plain disturbed.

> to call Azov an extremist group, [...], that is plain disturbed. Really? "Extremist brigade" then? Their isnignia is the one of 2.nd SS division Deutschland, cleverly mirrored. They were on the US sanction list.

Their insignia has the germanic wolf that is clearly meant to resonate with WW2 german, Nazi military symbolism. In its early days they had leaders that were overt Neonazis. No one is denying that, and I have no love for the far-right. But, what extreme acts of injustice have they committed? Have they been less than adamant defenders of their home, from an invasion with genocidal, maximalist goals, of all things? The only extreme things they've done is extreme sacrifice, as far as I can tell.

I might be wrong, there might be things I've not heard of. If that's the case, inform me. What I do know is that they're a notoriously effective brigade in the Ukrainian military and that any argument about their focus not being on the defence of Ukraine's statehood would be very hard to make. I also know that their checkered past has been a goto subject for Russian propaganda campaigns, aiming to divide the West.

I'm not more of a supporter of this brigade, than anyone else fighting for Ukraine. I am from the Baltics. For us, Russia is an existential and immediate threat. When the new US administration reneged on support for Ukraine and, by extension, us, literally every woman that's close to me said she's worried about war. You probably don't know what that's like. Our anxiety for the future is palpable. That motivates me to speak up.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#79

Post by cess11 »

noneeeed wrote: post #56
lurk2 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both organizations have had reputations for being honeypots as early as 2016. There have been a number of instances of federal agents becoming embedded in the organizational structures of groups like this (see e.g. the Malheur Wildlife Standoff and the plot to assassinate Gretchen Whitmer). Groups of this scale tend to fall into one of three categories: 1) They are honeypots set up by policing and / or intelligence a…

I've been struck by how often it is really quite senior people within criminal/terrorist organisations are the ones that get turned by the various agencies. In the UK, there was an informant for MI5 in the IRA for years codenamed Steaknife. It turned out he was the head of IRA internal security, it was his job to hunt moles. He was the perfect agent. I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an i…

The older you get, the more you've got to lose, and a lot of people become less radical with age.

At the same time you also tend to be a higher value target for external actors compared to young, new, members of an organisation. So in the young end of it you'd prefer infiltration to recruiting informants, in part because young informants also tend to be less reliable than old, for the reasons above. If it's your agent loyalty isn't as brittle as when you've convinced someone to become a traitor.

When news of government or other external actors having gained access breaks, you typically don't want your infiltrators to become known if you can avoid it. It's different in some settings, antifascists commonly do the opposite and try to protect their informants so they can keep working if they move on to another far right group, while their infiltrators sometimes go public with what they've done.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#80

Post by cess11 »

mjfl wrote: post #15
ferguess_k wrote: post #9

TBH I wouldn't be surprised if these organizations are infested with FBI agents.

[flagged]

ISIS-style groups hate 'fitnah' (fragmentation or sedition) and 'rafidah' (rejectors, of a certain succession), i.e. shiites, a perceived internal enemy of the ummah, more than they hate non-muslims. This makes Iran _the_ enemy, and enemies of the enemy tentative friends, and friends of the enemy enemies.

The US has never had any qualms cooperating with more or less nasty groups or regimes. They recruited the mafia to keep unions and socialists from gaining political power in Europe, exchanging a revival of the heroin trade for their own political gains.

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