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How the U.K. broke its own economy

theatlantic.com

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Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#71

Post by cavisne »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #50
aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

In the UK the energy market is broken, the costs of electricity is based on what the most expensive source is currently on the grid. The UK has a lot of wind (shallow waters, strong wind blasts from Atlantic etc) and wind is significantly cheaper, but because there's gas still on the grid everyone pays the higher gas based price even if energy is mostly coming from cheaper wind. Yes, the renewable cleaner energy is a…

It's based on the most expensive source that is required to meet demand. If there is enough wind to meet demand then gas is not needed or factored in to the price.

All markets (not just energy markets) work in this way.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#72

Post by ben_w »

aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

> Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

No.

What you need to combat climate change is cheap green energy, and "green" is just a different question entirely to "cost".

If you have expensive energy, regardless of how green it is or isn't, you get poverty.

If you have greenhouse-gas-emitting energy, regardless of how cheap or expensive it is, you get climate change.

20 years ago, all the green energy was expensive; now, green energy is the cheapest around.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#73

Post by walthamstow »

lsllc wrote: post #60

I have some friends over there and they (or their employers) are cutting back on their business expenditures, staffing and overall outlook. The new payroll taxes (unemployment insurance?) are going to bite both employers and employees alike. Taxes are too high, there's too much red tape for businesses and successive governments have failed to invest in anything outside of the "south" (e.g. Greater London). I was (hal…

I don't know why you think the north and Scotland would be better off together. The south east would only get richer under such a scenario.

Taxes-too-high is a common refrain but income tax + national insurance takes 26% of my 95th-percentile income. Is that so bad?

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#74

Post by [deleted] »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #64

The core argument - that the state is getting in the way of the private sector fixing everything - is clearly false, at least in the case of the UK. If that were the case, public transport (which underwent radical privatisation and deregulation across the UK some 40+ years ago), would be the cheapest and most effective in Europe. In fact, it's the most expensive in Europe. It is all currently being wrestled back into…

[deleted]

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#75

Post by ben_w »

legitster wrote: post #8
aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

Only high oil and gas prices specifically. And honestly, low gas prices is good if it helps move away from coal. But unfortunately, even the most liberal political groups have walked back any interest in solving climate change at the margin. You see this with the endless life of the "100 companies cause climate change" misinformation.

> And honestly, low gas prices is good if it helps move away from coal.

Good news, the UK has completely moved away from coal: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/30/end-of-an-e...

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#76

Post by lurk2 »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #50
aftbit wrote: post #5

Aren't higher energy prices exactly what we need to combat climate change though?

In the UK the energy market is broken, the costs of electricity is based on what the most expensive source is currently on the grid. The UK has a lot of wind (shallow waters, strong wind blasts from Atlantic etc) and wind is significantly cheaper, but because there's gas still on the grid everyone pays the higher gas based price even if energy is mostly coming from cheaper wind. Yes, the renewable cleaner energy is a…

> because there's gas still on the grid everyone pays the higher gas based price even if energy is mostly coming from cheaper wind

You're describing how a market functions. If the gas plants went offline tomorrow, could the wind turbines produce sufficient energy to power the national grid?

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#77

Post by Kim_Bruning »

robertlagrant wrote: post #34
rawgabbit wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sound bites drives political discussion. When a polluting industry poisons the air and the water and people go to the hospital because they are coughing or they have dysentery, who will pay to cleanup the mess? If you frame the discussion as about “price” it is a non-starter. I would argue it is better to talk about workers and their families. As in let us not shit in the river so our children don’t get sick and can…

This seems disingenuous twice: 1. You're welcome to argue that, but you haven't here. You've just stated it. 2. You shouldn't supplant one topic with another. High energy prices kill people, because energy drives the cost of everything, and people can direct less value into things that keep them healthy if they're spending a greater proportion of their income on survival. You can say "also air should be clean", fine,…

I think Rawgabbit is trying to get at the point that you need to price in the externalities to find the actual value of something.

They're trying to explain in good faith as far as I can tell.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#78

Post by piker »

My own [local government] is so stupid its own massive 7-figure park project got blocked by [local government] planning halfway through. For about a year instead of a park we’ve had two massive holes surrounded by fences. Too many taxes, too much nimbyism. This one really is that simple.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#79

Post by lotsofpulp »

bojan wrote: post #23
pipes wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what was the alternative? Continue with the disaster of central planning. Which is the actual thing that destroyed British industry.

I have a lot of issues with the work of Yanis Varoufakis, but he has one idea that I'd like to see tried out - and that is that the workers own 10% of their companies, obviously getting 10% of the profit, etc. At least in Europe it's uncommon to get shares as part of the compensation package, so I'm curious how the Varoufakis' idea would end up working. It's worth giving it a shot.

As a worker, I don't want 10% of my business' volatile profit. I would rather have reliable cash, that I can invest in SP500. Or at least that is the case with employees of most businesses.

Re: How the U.K. broke its own economy

#80

Post by ZeroGravitas »

The last government intentionally banned the cheapest source of energy, onshore wind, from being built in England, by making it so that a single complaint could stop a project.

I cannot believe this article talks about planning constraints and energy prices and doesn't mention that.

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