Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 121 posts

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#71

Post by cman1444 »

r00fus wrote: post #21
PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

The hubris in this article is unreal: it's posing that privately owned utilities are a good thing and that bypassing them is some crime that's done by ratepayers. I hope that business model dies in a fire. Instead the entire paradigm of centralized generation may need to be called into question and we should instead be focusing on a hybrid centralized baseline + local generation and storage. Places like China do fine…

Weird, I didn't read it like that at all. The article really just comes off as an explanation of the effects of decentralized solar on existing utility companies. It doesn't ever say that solar installers are bad.

In fact, it even somewhat welcomes it by pointing out that the competition utility companies now face will force them to offer better service.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#72

Post by hedora »

PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

I think the end game is that people that realize they have to live on this planet will disconnect from the grid (because it is cheaper) and use that waste electricity for direct atmospheric carbon capture (because terraforming is our only remaining viable path forward).

If that means the grids go bankrupt and default on payments to the fossil fuel industry, then I will try to pretend to be very sad for at least 60 seconds.

The group of people that will ultimately benefit from this includes just about everyone except the octogenarian plutocrats that are actively accelerating climate change.

Maybe once they die off there will be some financial incentives to help repair the atmosphere (assuming life extension technology doesn’t doom all of us to living with their immortality).

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#73

Post by Gibbon1 »

PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

Unlike the economist I know something about accounting. If there is excess power at zero marginal cost someone cunning is already planning on making some coin off it. As it is utilities with excess solar and wind are rapidly adding battery storage.

I think there are three stages of renewable development. The first stage renewables partly offset traditional suppliers. The second stage is you actually have excess part of the time. And the third stage you have a lot of season excess. China and Texas are in the first stage but California is in the second stage already.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#74

Post by lazide »

killingtime74 wrote: post #68
kylehotchkiss wrote: post #33

This reminds me that utilities can limit the size of your rooftop solar system, which locks you into whatever your usage you had at install time. Because of that it's difficult for me to actually achieve net zero electric usage and it's more cost effective for me to remain on a gas furnace instead of upgrading to a heat pump. This is such a shame. I wish I could just get 2 more KWh.

If you get more can't you disconnect from the grid? Then they can't stop you. You need batteries of course. Or stay connected with existing system and have more solar that is only connected to batteries separately, no grid.

Some places will condemn your house (or at least threaten to) if you don’t have an active grid power connection. so yes, they can stop you.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#75

Post by wodenokoto »

PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

Yes, because the solar cells aren't free. They have an environmental and monetary impact while not lasting forever. If you don't use them, you are wasting them.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#76

Post by narism »

quickthrowman wrote: post #52
hex4def6 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean 2kW not 2kWh. And you can; look up "Non-export addition". These are solar panels that are set to zero-export; they will either charge a battery or the current house loads, but never backfeed into the grid.

> they will either charge a battery or the current house loads, but never backfeed into the grid. I’m not sure I understand how this works unless you split off loads into a subpanel that is fed by a UPS which is fed by solar panels, and also isolated from your utility connected electrical service. As far as I understand it, you can’t have power generated by solar panels feeding loads in your grid-connected panel with…

Zero export inverters are grid-tied but monitor the meter/CTs for load changes in order to curtail solar production/shift it to battery charging. I think they can technically backfeed a little bit if load is suddenly dumped depending on the inverter response time. Some have a secondary hard disconnect for additional protection.

https://knowledge-center.solaredge.com/sites/kc/files/feed-i...

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#77

Post by Dylan16807 »

quickthrowman wrote: post #52
hex4def6 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you mean 2kW not 2kWh. And you can; look up "Non-export addition". These are solar panels that are set to zero-export; they will either charge a battery or the current house loads, but never backfeed into the grid.

> they will either charge a battery or the current house loads, but never backfeed into the grid. I’m not sure I understand how this works unless you split off loads into a subpanel that is fed by a UPS which is fed by solar panels, and also isolated from your utility connected electrical service. As far as I understand it, you can’t have power generated by solar panels feeding loads in your grid-connected panel with…

> As far as I understand it, you can’t have power generated by solar panels feeding loads in your grid-connected panel without backfeeding the grid, same deal as a generator backfeeding a grid-connected panel. You have to kill the MCB or service disconnect to prevent backfeeding.

An inverter can limit its output, right? So measure current at a few different points in the system, do some math, and use that to set the inverter's limit.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#78

Post by 0_____0 »

conradev wrote: post #60
0_____0 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long do you expect it to take? Related: I've been trying to get my electric company to register the meters they installed in August so I can get billed properly. It's been months of back and forth. I just want to pay them money for electricity, it's all I want from them.

California can permit standard residential installations same-day with SolarAPP+

That's fantastic, I wish simple things could be permitted that fast here. It takes weeks for simple stuff to get approved here.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#79

Post by ZeroGravitas »

YurgenJurgensen wrote: post #12
PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

Solar panels use energy to create, and have a finite lifespan. If energy is generated but not used, it makes the average lifetime efficiency decrease. This does result in wasted energy.

Almost every innovation along the way to amazingly cheap solar has involved wasting more energy.

Note, I said amazingly cheap, not efficient. We have more efficient solar options but they're in the lab waiting for a breakthrough to make them cheaper or being replaced in the market with options that waste more and cost less per useful watt delivered.

The Economist did a whole issue recently about how amazing solar is and how it is changing the world but they've been mildly climate skeptical for years platforming frauds like Bjorn Lomberg and it still leaks through in their writing, even if they've switched to "solar being too cheap is bad" from "solar is too expensive to help".

Solar is competing against systems that pay for their fuel directly and which still turn two thirds of it to waste heat.

Re: Cheap solar power is sending electrical grids into a death spiral

#80

Post by zekrioca »

YurgenJurgensen wrote: post #12
PlunderBunny wrote: post #9

> "lots of self-generated power will ultimately be wasted." This is sunlight falling on a roof. If you convert it into electricity but then don't use that electricity, is it really a waste? It's like saying that the overflow from my water tank that collects rain water off the roof is 'wasting' water. It could be argued that it's a waste in the sense that the generated electricity could have gone to someone else if th…

Solar panels use energy to create, and have a finite lifespan. If energy is generated but not used, it makes the average lifetime efficiency decrease. This does result in wasted energy.

This is only true if the “generated but not utilized energy” is larger than the “total generated and utilized energy” + “total energy to create the panel”. Of courses, this is totally implausible as the lifespan of a typical panel is between 15-20y, and this is enough time for the inequality to turn good for using a panel.
Post reply on HN