Changing My Mind On Microsoft • Hacker News Board

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#71

Post by archangel_one » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:15 PM UTC

powertower wrote: post #9

> My personal gripe was how poorly Microsoft thought about and handled security issues. My Linux computer is as far as I know virus free . He is comparing Windows 95 to Ubuntu 11.04 (if you follow the link in that sentence)! > They [devs] did not bother developing for other platforms because those platforms were economically irrelevant and the Microsoft developer tools worked. Then he doesn't even make the connection…

> > Windows security issues are everywhere and it did not need to be so. > Sorry, but that's mostly due to the desktop market size and Windows' share of it.

No, it's not. It's mostly due to Microsoft ignoring security for years because it wasn't important to them. They didn't have to have everyone running as root by default in all versions of Windows before Vista (AFAIK in XP Home you can't actually set up restricted users). They didn't have to have lots of open ports offering things like RPC to the world. They didn't have to have all files executable by default, based solely off the hidden part of the filename in AnnaKournikova.jpg.exe.

There are now supposed to be 300M Android devices worldwide, which is within an order of magnitude of Windows' numbers 10 years ago, and you don't see Android phones being compromised remotely within fifteen minutes of being connected to a network. There's no equivalent of Blaster or Sasser or anything close to that level.

It's partly due to Windows' market share that it got targeted so heavily, but those opportunities wouldn't have been there if they hadn't ignored security for so long.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#72

Post by untog » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:16 PM UTC

127001brewer wrote: post #38

huggyface wrote: post #3

All internal computer now run as virtual machines (not desktops) running on two mondo-powerful Linux servers. The virtualization platform is Citrix. Nobody has a functional box under their desk any more. ... The company has got rid of the desktop computers entirely (sorry Dell and HP) What? How are they accessing these virtual machines? Mind meld? In most cases where companies use VDIs the desktop machines are the st…

... it is very difficult to find candidates who know anything but Microsoft tools. This may depend on a variety of things, such as the job location and desired skill level, but this blanket statement is false. For example, it seems that a significant number of Hacker News participants - who are developers - develop in other languages and platforms. ... completely detached from reality. My personal opinion is that dev…

There will always be (perhaps seemingly a majority of) people where being a developer is just a "job" and learning new things isn't necessary.

Absolutely. And I don't begrudge those people- I initially learnt .NET myself and then broadened my horizons, but many of my previous co-workers have families, time consuming hobbies or other such interests. There's not inherently wrong with having "just a job", if you're content with other things in your life. It seems like a specifically (oddly) US-centric view that there should be anything wrong with that.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#73

Post by spamizbad » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:17 PM UTC

jgeralnik wrote: post #32

fingerprinter wrote: post #24

> Nowadays nobody under thirty writes anything on Microsoft developer tools unless they are demented or brain-dead. I see most people saying he is wrong here, though I can't think why. Are there people who thing A. writing software for windows? B. are targeting the windows phone? C. deploying to a cloud (private or public) using Windows servers? If you are targeting a phone, it is most def either iOS or Android, prob…

(Anecdotal counterpoint) For the vast majority of the students at my university, visual studio is the reach-to solution for any problem. They would much rather figure out how to write ASP.NET because visual studio is "awesome" than go around running node.js (what's that?) from a command line.

Anecdotal counterpoint to your counterpoint - I saw the same thing 10 years ago when I was in school (Comp-Sci students gobbling up Visual Studio). It seems the more things change the more they stay the same...

Despite this:

-Qualified .NET developers continue to be difficult to find. Also, they make slightly less money than their Java counter-parts for reasons I don't fully understand.

-The 00's are regarded as Microsoft's "lost decade"

-Microsoft's tools gained little traction among startups... although MS-based ones do exist. The most notable being StackExcahnge however that was created by industry veterans not out-of-college whippersnappers.

Don't count on computer science students to create Microsoft's future. Many will drop the major for something easier.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#74

Post by aggronn » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

irahul wrote: post #70

aggronn wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where else is there? Development in India is more ingrained in Microsoft than anywhere else on earth. Looking for blog posts on silverlight will lead to a poorly written guide by a developer in India. ALL LARGE IT CONSULTING FIRMS have major operations in India, and the majority of them use ASP.NET or WPF. Many are now moving over to open technologies like rails, but only in small US specific shops targeting US custo…

> Development in India is more ingrained in Microsoft than anywhere else on earth. Software development in India follows whatever happens to be mainstream. People need jobs, most of the jobs are in software services, the projects service providers get are mostly Java/.net, colleges and people tend to stick with Java/.net to be on the safer side. > ALL LARGE IT CONSULTING FIRMS have major operations in India, and the…

I agree with all of that; I should have been more clear in referencing the web stuff. Perhaps I'm being unintentionally disingenuous about Java's role in all of this.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#75

Post by irahul » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

giulianob wrote: post #63

jmcqk6 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the author is apparently unaware that C# is one of the few truly multi-platform languages, which runs on Android, iPhone, OS X, Linux, windows of course, and whatever other platform the mono people have since added. I don't even get the complaint about vendor lock-in. What does using C# lock you into (especially compared to the use of other languages)? Sure, it's possible to use C# in such a way that you're stu…

It can be a bit of an effort though to get your code to run on multiple platforms w/ C#. Mono is awesome but it's not perfect by any means.

> Mono is awesome but it's not perfect by any means.

If by perfect, you mean doesn't implement whole of .net, then yes. For me, this is good enough http://www.mono-project.com/Compatibility I am not looking to play catch-up with MS's implementation(good to see mono mentioned WPF as no plans to implement)

What I don't like about .net in general is it's still catching up on package and dependency management.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#76

Post by woodchuck64 » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:23 PM UTC

huggyface wrote: post #3

All internal computer now run as virtual machines (not desktops) running on two mondo-powerful Linux servers. The virtualization platform is Citrix. Nobody has a functional box under their desk any more. ... The company has got rid of the desktop computers entirely (sorry Dell and HP) What? How are they accessing these virtual machines? Mind meld? In most cases where companies use VDIs the desktop machines are the st…

So you would be long Microsoft? If no then one wonders if you really effectively disagree with Hempton.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#77

Post by moron » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:23 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #21

Whether one agrees or not with the facts and reasoning of the author (a successful hedge-fund manager with a widely followed blog), this blog post is important in and of itself because of what it represents: a tectonic shift in the business community's perception of Microsoft. The business community is now openly doubting the future relevance of the Windows platform!

Yeah, it's interesting that it has become OK to say these things in the open. In the past, any doubting of MS was smacked down by simply pointing at Windows and Office, as well as MS's cash pile and market cap. It has been sort of painful seeing their series of sizeable blunders treated with something akin to a shrug, but I guess those chickens are finally coming home to roost.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#78

Post by X-Cubed » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:26 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #64

jmcqk6 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the author is apparently unaware that C# is one of the few truly multi-platform languages, which runs on Android, iPhone, OS X, Linux, windows of course, and whatever other platform the mono people have since added. I don't even get the complaint about vendor lock-in. What does using C# lock you into (especially compared to the use of other languages)? Sure, it's possible to use C# in such a way that you're stu…

Good point. The lock-in is mostly such that if you code in C# on Windows first, getting it to run on Mono later may be difficult, if you didn't pay close attention to what you were doing from the start. In this sense, it's rather different than e.g. Java. But not too different from all that POSIX-specific Ruby and Python code out there, admittedly.

Yeah, but that statement applies to pretty much any language really, not just C#.

If you code your Java app to expect to find documents in /home// or link your Java app with binary libraries that are platform-specific, then you're going to have the same trouble.

Cross-platform support is rarely (if ever) a matter of just compiling into a new binary.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#79

Post by takluyver » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:44 PM UTC

cbaleanu wrote: post #57

evo_9 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were no serious threats to their dominance before; now they have iOS, Android and even OS-X is starting to gain more marketshare than I'd be comfortable with if I were ballmer.

I really don't see the point that many HN users keep comparing apples with oranges. iOS and Android have no relevance in this discussion as they are not real OS'es. You cannot develop on them, you cannot do work on them except for replying emails and browsing some webpages. And that's how it will remain. OSX is great, but please post the link from Apple store where you can get a decent working laptop for under $500.…

> iOS and Android have no relevance in this discussion as they are not real OS'es... And that's how it will remain.

This sounds seriously shortsighted. So far, Android and iOS are focused on media consumption, but I'm already starting to see them used for 'work', like taking notes in meetings. Asus' transformer line (tablets with a keyboard dock) shows where the next step might be.

There's no rule that 'real work' requires a WIMP (windows, icons, menus, pointer) interface. It's perfectly possible to imagine that in a few years it will be possible to develop on Android devices with some peripherals attached. There's no fundamental obstacle to it.

I don't think the PC is dead - there's still a lot of software and user experience built up around it. But it's quite clear by now that tablets/phones are becoming serious competition.

Re: Changing My Mind On Microsoft

#80

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 4:46 PM UTC

> In the late 1990s Windows developed huge market power. Whilst not strictly a monopoly the company had plenty of monopoly characteristics. Sure you could buy a Macintosh - but that market was so small that people did not develop software for Macs and hence Macs were for people who did not need a wide range of software.

So is this, in addition to careful attention to typography, the explanation for why Macs were big with designers? (Many designers do the vast majority of their work in a handful of programs, and one in particular.)