The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition • Hacker News Board

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#71

Post by neutronicus » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:29 PM UTC

hboon wrote: post #24

antr wrote: post #14

In 1998 we wouldn't of complained - at least me. It is 2012, and when I purchase software, I don't buy into the premise that this software is going to be static for perpetuity, and this is because of the fast-paced nature of OS, platform and web evolution. I "marry" the software I love, and I am very happy to pay for upgrades. I upgrade my Mac the day after a new OS X version is released, not only that, but I use non…

Have you stopped using GitHub, if you were a user?

Why would I?

I'll just go to push my local changes to it one day, and it'll be gone, and I'll still have the entire history of my project.

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#72

Post by kenjackson » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

ben1040 wrote: post #70

steve8918 wrote: post #60

Unfortunately, this is what you get when you pay $10 for an app. There is a huge disparity when it comes to the cost of apps these days vs the salaries required to sustain the engineers who make those apps. Even at $10/pop, you need to sell a lot of apps just to sustain the salaries of very good engineers, and THIS is what makes great products vulnerable to acqui-hires. The problem is that the $0.99 model of the App…

This is spot on. Thanks to the App Store, the days of paying $30+ for boxed software and paying again every year or so for version n+1 (assuming it comes out at all) are pretty far back in the rear view mirror now. I paid $10 for Sparrow and got far more than $10 in value from it. So while I am disappointed that the best email app I have seen is EOL'd now I did get a decent value and I can't complain a whole lot. I a…

"Not everything can or should cost a buck."

When I talk to many developers they tell me that everything should be free.

How do you recalibrate the consumer's perception of the value of software, when so many developers don't value software either?

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#73

Post by dhugiaskmak » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:32 PM UTC

steve8918 wrote: post #60

Unfortunately, this is what you get when you pay $10 for an app. There is a huge disparity when it comes to the cost of apps these days vs the salaries required to sustain the engineers who make those apps. Even at $10/pop, you need to sell a lot of apps just to sustain the salaries of very good engineers, and THIS is what makes great products vulnerable to acqui-hires. The problem is that the $0.99 model of the App…

How much would Sparrow have had to sell for in order to make a $25mil offer from Google not seem attractive? Would you have still bought Sparrow at that price?

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#74

Post by webwright » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

steve8918 wrote: post #60

Unfortunately, this is what you get when you pay $10 for an app. There is a huge disparity when it comes to the cost of apps these days vs the salaries required to sustain the engineers who make those apps. Even at $10/pop, you need to sell a lot of apps just to sustain the salaries of very good engineers, and THIS is what makes great products vulnerable to acqui-hires. The problem is that the $0.99 model of the App…

This is very very true. Their overall top grossing US rank (on iPhone) was stabilizing in the 500-700 range (after generally declining for months[1]), which equates to tens of thousands of dollars per month from my understanding. I'm sure they made some from their Mac app as well. This is GOOD MONEY, don't get me wrong. But you'd have to really love self-employment to take this over a $2M payout and a $200k comp package (stock, benefits, etc).

If I were to guess, these guys were also buried in support from paying customers who felt entitled to it. What are the economics of technical support for a $2.99 app?

[1] Source of the rank data-- requires an account but worth it if you're interested in this stuff: http://www.appannie.com/app/ios/492573565/ranking/history/#v...

Here's a screenshot if you don't want to create an account: https://skitch.com/webwright/eenji/sparrow-rank-history-app-...

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#75

Post by facorreia » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

nirvana wrote: post #37

Could it simply be that Google is willing to so overpay for engineers that it makes sense for Sparrow, which, in previous times would itself be a nice successful small business (like eudora used to be, etc.) Back in the day, Sparrow might have grown over 5-10 years to be a big company to get swallowed up... but now, companies like google are so desperate for talent that they cut them off too early by making absurd of…

I think this is not about the engineers that built the company, but about the VCs that funded it. Usually the contractual conditions put the VCs in control of the situation so they can take an exit when it presents itself. Sometimes the original owners get nothing out of these acquisitions.

Edit: clarification.

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#76

Post by abruzzi » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:35 PM UTC

fallenhitokiri wrote: post #12

antihero wrote: post #8

Perhaps we should only pay for development of open-source software, so we actually own what we're paying for.

I don't use Sparrow so please correct me if I am wrong. The applications are still fully functional and are working perfectly fine until Apple changes anything they heavily depend on or something replaces imap. You own your copy of Sparrow and it still works. Imagine you buy a BMW and in 10 years you cannot get the required fuel anymore. Does this mean you only pay for a new car when you get all plans for the engine…

One worry is since iOS is so dependent/tied to the app store for updates or reinstalls, if the developer pulls the app from the store, you can never redownload it, and you are then stuck trying to maintain a copy that you backed up and hoping you don't lose the file. And if you don't plug in to a PC you wont be able to reinstall the app. This happened to me with smule and "Magic Fiddle".

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#77

Post by aayush » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:37 PM UTC

The reactions across the board are quite disappointing, to be honest.

All you can do as a customer (or as anything, for that matter) is give up the illusion of control.

This is the Sparrow story: A fantastic product was built, and exchanged for money. The people behind the product were recognized, and were acquired for a significant amount.

Everyone is a winner, and customers move on to the next thing.

What's more worrying is our reaction to an email client going under: it's clearly a sign that we don't have enough well designed products for a system that's been in mass use for more than a decade.

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#78

Post by fpgeek » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:39 PM UTC

Yes, the Sparrow acquisition is a great illustration of how the whole "you're the product" cult was broken from the start.

No matter how much you are (or aren't) paying you are always both the customer and the product. Even Apple, who gets plenty of money from their customers directly, is willing to pimp out their customers as "400 million active credit cards" in the right context. At the other extreme, Google devotes an immense amount of effort to continuously improving search. They know that they live and die based on how happy you are as a search customer, even though they aren't paid even a nickel from searches directly.

I'll say it again: we're always both the customer and the product. There's no escaping that. Our only option is to decide which vendors' tradeoffs we are and aren't willing to live with. And black-and-white moralizing about whether or not "you're the product" gets in the way of picking the shades of gray that work for you.

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#79

Post by oellegaard » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

aayush wrote: post #77

The reactions across the board are quite disappointing, to be honest. All you can do as a customer (or as anything, for that matter) is give up the illusion of control. This is the Sparrow story: A fantastic product was built, and exchanged for money. The people behind the product were recognized, and were acquired for a significant amount. Everyone is a winner, and customers move on to the next thing. What's more wo…

I completely agree with the fact that there are no well designed products for email, now that Sparrow stopped developing new features - hopefully someone gets a cool idea and puts it on the app store soonish.

Re: The real reason we’re upset about Sparrow’s acquisition

#80

Post by LVB » Sat, Jul 21, 2012, 3:45 PM UTC

If you’re not paying for it, you’re not the customer; you’re the product being sold.

I don't think it has 'failed', as the article states. Paying for the software is necessary but no guarantee. If we slide back to everything being free, things will be worse. But even if we do pay, we cannot forget one very important thing: We are dealing with very small companies and all of the volatility that comes with them. The situation is simply exacerbated when the employees of that company are highly sought after.

It doesn't take Google to buy out a little company. They can just choose to get other jobs or spend their time other ways, get bored with the product, have a falling out, anything. Sparrow could have just as well said, "We're stopping all development on the email client today. 100% of future effort will be on games". And that's why boring enterprise software from MegaCorp still generates huge revenue, because they can go tell a GE, Chase, Honda or McDonalds something LittleCo can't. They can tell the customer that they can expect a specific level of support and life from the product, and here's 20 years of history to prove it, and that they're signing on with a $5 billion company that's not easily bought out. The cool stuff on the bleeding edge may also be fleeting. Large companies want stability, and I guess people using certain software do too.

Side-note: FOSS is a very different animal with interesting characteristics.