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Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#71

Post by ghusto »

inglor_cz wrote: post #35
poulpy123 wrote: post #22

I don't care either way since I'm not concerned but I can shake how bizarre and grotesque the switch to and from DEI were. The very recent example of Zuckerberg going full "masculine energy has been neutered by feminine energy" like he is some kind of Andrew Tate influencer is quite unbelievable for the CEO of a 600 billion dollars company

It was a gesture for preening on the social networks, and now that the winds have changed, they will be trying to buy attention and approval on social networks through something else. It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money . If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely. Possibly they would change the name of the pr…

> It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money

Can't argue with that, but wanted to point out that this (ostensibly at least) wasn't the point. The point of these types of schemes was always purported to be for some kind of social justice.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#72

Post by slt2021 »

pavlov wrote: post #38
nailer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody thinks women being in leadership in the fire department is DEI. Three lesbians being leaders at the same time though (as happened a few years ago) given the small portion of lesbian firefighters seems indicative of bias.

And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right? What else could explain 37 Jewish physics Nobel winners in the 20th century? People can simply be good at something. Maybe lesbian firefighters actually work very hard to overcome the expectations against them.

Nobel prizes are strongly correlated to the educational institution (research school, supervising PI) where research is done. The best predictor of winning nobel prize is whether your academic supervisor/lead have won Nobel prize previously and you are continuing his line of nobel winning research.

The connection of Nobel prize to race/ethnicity, as well as a claim that jews are supposedly smarter than everybody else (to the extent of dominating nobel nominations) is incredibly racist and is false.

Its basically the same ubermensch/untermensch argument made by adolf hitler in Mein Kampf about "superior Aryan race" but this time applied to jews as ubermensch. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3190562/

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#73

Post by inglor_cz »

ghusto wrote: post #71
inglor_cz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a gesture for preening on the social networks, and now that the winds have changed, they will be trying to buy attention and approval on social networks through something else. It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money . If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely. Possibly they would change the name of the pr…

> It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money Can't argue with that, but wanted to point out that this (ostensibly at least) wasn't the point. The point of these types of schemes was always purported to be for some kind of social justice.

You never encountered the idea that having diverse workforce makes the corporation better at doing business?

I saw it quite often.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#74

Post by maxerickson »

geertj wrote: post #68
maxerickson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you have the same problem. What does 'best' mean, and how do you accurately measure it? Of course you will have an answer, but how various things are weighted when making a decision is pretty subjective.

Hiring will always have a subjective aspect to it, which is just the nature it. And I do agree that techniques like being conscious of bias and trying to interrupt it are useful. But yes, I do have an answer, which is that excluding factors that do not relate at all to job responsibilities is strictly better than including those, even if the result is still subjective.

Categorizing factors as not related to job responsibilities is also subjective!

Of course it can often be easy to identify the most salient factors, but that doesn't make it a concrete activity.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#75

Post by zo1 »

defrost wrote: post #58
slt2021 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have eyes, I can read news, and I can see the results of their work in LA.

But you can't explain why its predictable that lesbians --> failure.

Not OP, but that point has nothing to do with them being lesbians or females. That label distracts from the actual criticism and bias that sadly played a part.

It could just as well have been "obese native americans with amputations" or "foreign born white dudes with Crohn's disease" or "pansexual blue-haired dance majors" or "three sons of Mayor Dalton that approves the fire department's budget". If that property ticks the boxes, and they occur here at a way-higher proportion than the overall population then bingo - you know you've had bias and reverse discrimination for the sake of representation, rather than merit alone. The alternative is just a really really unlikely coincidence.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#76

Post by eesmith »

poulpy123 wrote: post #28
tomlockwood wrote: post #2

I don't quite understand what the conservatives think DEI actually is, because as far as I can tell three women being in leadership positions in the LA fire department is "DEI". It just seems like the new "woke" or "political correctness", and just as vague.

DEI is focusing on the identity of the person instead of the abilities/programs/skills/work related arguments. When the LAFD communicates that the LGBT status of the 3 heads of the department they signals it's the reason they got hired to this position. if you add absurd communication like saying it's better to be rescued by someone that looks like you or that the first thing you'll say to someone you want to rescue…

DEI is focused on the identify insofar as that identity has been the basis of discrimination preventing equality on the basis of abilities, skills, etc.

> they signals it's the reason they got hired to this position

That does not follow. When an organization communicates that Obama was the first US president born in Hawaii, that does not signal that he was elected because he was from Hawaii.

The local paper had a short article last year that for the first time the entire crew of three people on a truck were women. The article added that the scheduling was happenstance, and not deliberately done.

A couple of years ago, Teri Eidson and her daughter, Nicole McAllister made the news because they were the first mother-daughter team to co-pilot an international flight.

Neither of these should be interpreted to mean that those women were hired specifically to get that reported result.

Sergei Volkov was the first second-generation cosmonaut, that is, his father was the cosmonaut Aleksandr Volkov.

When that made the news, did it also signal that the son got the position not due to abilities, skills, etc., but because of his father?

And so on, and so on, and so on.

It also does not follow because you have to know if there are complicating factors.

For example, if other cities discriminate against LGBT department heads while LA does not, then the population of qualified potential department heads would be higher for LA than other cities.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#77

Post by astura »

blub wrote: post #36
mschuster91 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI means lowering standards to accomodate minorities and discrimination against more qualified white males Women are perfectly capable of working in firefighting, the military or police. I've personally seen a female police officer of barely 1.60m throw a drunk 2m Russian dude on a rampage in a bar fight onto the ground and tie him up alone , about a solid third of the volunteer force in my THW unit are women, a g…

The case of the two policewomen which ran away from a shooting and left their male colleagues to fend for themselves caused quite a stir in Germany. During the trial they said they were deadly afraid and didn’t see how many shooters there were and from where the shots were coming. Got in their car and left. I tried to find an equivalent male example, but every newspaper was writing about this particular case.

This happened during the Uvalde school shooting.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/07/13/uvalde-sho...

It's interesting there was a trial, because in America police have no specific duty to protect the public.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#78

Post by pavlov »

slt2021 wrote: post #72
pavlov wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And by this same logic, the Nobel Committee for Physics has an obvious historical bias towards Jews, right? What else could explain 37 Jewish physics Nobel winners in the 20th century? People can simply be good at something. Maybe lesbian firefighters actually work very hard to overcome the expectations against them.

Nobel prizes are strongly correlated to the educational institution (research school, supervising PI) where research is done. The best predictor of winning nobel prize is whether your academic supervisor/lead have won Nobel prize previously and you are continuing his line of nobel winning research. The connection of Nobel prize to race/ethnicity, as well as a claim that jews are supposedly smarter than everybody else…

Exactly! Getting the prize had nothing to do with them being Jewish, or that such bias was in the process. They were simply excellent researchers in the right place at the right time.

And similarly we have no evidence that lesbian firefighters who gain leadership positions got there through either genetic predisposition or bias. Maybe they just had the right attitude and the right mentors, like those researchers.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#79

Post by eesmith »

astura wrote: post #70
newsclues wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn’t DEI being used to hire men in female dominated industries?

It is.

Here is a supporting example found from a DDG search for "DEI nursing":

"The Rise of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) Practitioners in Academic Nursing" at https://ojin.nursingworld.org/table-of-contents/volume-27-20...

> Efforts to strengthen diversity in nursing have not targeted race alone. That is because the nursing profession also lacks gender diversity, with the vast majority of nurses (over 87%) being female (U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, n.d.). In addition, the racial demographics of faculty reflect a body of academicians who are 82% White, 9% Black/African American, 3.4% Hispanic/Latino, 2.9% Asian, and 93% female (NLN, 2021). Ideally, the nursing workforce should closely align with the racial, ethnic, and gender makeup of the U.S. population.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#80

Post by slt2021 »

maxerickson wrote: post #74
geertj wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring will always have a subjective aspect to it, which is just the nature it. And I do agree that techniques like being conscious of bias and trying to interrupt it are useful. But yes, I do have an answer, which is that excluding factors that do not relate at all to job responsibilities is strictly better than including those, even if the result is still subjective.

Categorizing factors as not related to job responsibilities is also subjective! Of course it can often be easy to identify the most salient factors, but that doesn't make it a concrete activity.

are you making a claim that sexual identity and race (two most common DEI factors) are part of the job ?

how is being a black lesbian part to any job whatsoever ?

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