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World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

eso.org

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Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#71

Post by SiempreViernes »

markvdb wrote: post #64

A cynic would read this as as "I can't believe our (AES) luck. There's a good chance we can squeeze the Europeans for lots of money. We'll gladly share some of the proceeds with the new US president's cronies for having them do the haggling."

You want a real conspiracy theory? How about this: some rich Thirty Meters Telescope patron saw the peril the project has been in and set out to sabotage the ELT!

Of course, the ELT is proper funded, so the best he can do is making it useless by ruining it's sky for a decade with construction dust and light.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#72

Post by zeristor »

madaxe_again wrote: post #62
Daub wrote: post #40

When I lived in the Welsh countryside, there were occasional nights where I could not see my hand in front of my face. The requirements were that it was new moon, and that there was slight fog. We also lived deep in a valley, which helped. I had great fun navigating my way to the local pub in complete darkness. The odd thing is that when I recount that experience, some people refuse to believe me. Of course they are…

I live that experience daily. I live in a very remote corner of Portugal - we are between bortle 2 and 3 - in the bottom of a deep, steep valley. And yes - when it’s a new moon and the haze from the river blots out the stars, the experience is quite akin to having gone blind. In fact, it’s so dark I’ve used some of those nights to develop film at the outdoor sink. One thing I’ve noted is that wildlife needs to see ju…

I looked up bortle and Portugal, and Google gave my a light pollution map. I still don’t know what bortle means…

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#74

Post by bastih »

zeristor wrote: post #72
madaxe_again wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live that experience daily. I live in a very remote corner of Portugal - we are between bortle 2 and 3 - in the bottom of a deep, steep valley. And yes - when it’s a new moon and the haze from the river blots out the stars, the experience is quite akin to having gone blind. In fact, it’s so dark I’ve used some of those nights to develop film at the outdoor sink. One thing I’ve noted is that wildlife needs to see ju…

I looked up bortle and Portugal, and Google gave my a light pollution map. I still don’t know what bortle means… https://www.lightpollutionmap.info

https://www.handprint.com/ASTRO/bortle.html

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#75

Post by Cthulhu_ »

Daub wrote: post #40

When I lived in the Welsh countryside, there were occasional nights where I could not see my hand in front of my face. The requirements were that it was new moon, and that there was slight fog. We also lived deep in a valley, which helped. I had great fun navigating my way to the local pub in complete darkness. The odd thing is that when I recount that experience, some people refuse to believe me. Of course they are…

I've experienced that once in a simulated environment; there's a museum in Nijmegen that has an indoor setup to simulate being completely blind, you get a stick and a guide and have to navigate a living room and the like. Can recommend if you're interested in accessibility and the like!

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#76

Post by kahirsch »

oefrha wrote: post #46
aragilar wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plan of "don't build a major industrial centre 5km from the best site for optical astronomy in the world, build it somewhere else" seems like a perfect viable one to me.

Well, local people probably care about economic development and don’t give a rat’s ass about astronomy. So the question becomes, who’s going to compensate for the loss of economic development? (By local I don’t mean strictly local, in case of counter arguments along the line that there are no/very few local people to begin with.) Disclosure: I’m a former physicist and I have personally operated an optical telescope w…

This is in the middle of the desert at high altitude. There are basically no local people who aren't associated with the telescopes.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/cWgWx1RKjEUjavPn8

Whether the facility is built there or 50 km away, it's going to have to draw people from more than a few km away. The entire Taltal district only has about 11,000 people.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#79

Post by frereubu »

senorrib wrote: post #77

Definitely a hard choice between an industrial complex generating thousands of jobs and a glorified camera.

Difficult to tell the economic / geographic context from a short article like this, but they mention the possibility of relocating the project. If possible that's a win / win, no? Sounds like it may just be the case that the dark sky aspect of this wasn't taken into consideration.

Re: World's darkest and clearest skies at risk from industrial megaproject

#80

Post by topspin »

I'm noticing that the reporting on this, including the ESO press release, is vague on exactly what this "industrial megaproject" happens to be. Ordinarily, there is no hesitation to disclose this, unless it's a military matter. Or a sacred cow.

A sacred cow, indeed. It's a green energy operation powered by both wind and solar to generate hydrogen, electricity and ammonia. Here[1] is the AES Andes press release about this project, if you care to read the opposing spin on this matter:

"AES Chile submitted an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) to Chilean permitting authorities for a proposed industrial-scale green hydrogen project called Inna. The project, which is in early-stage development, could include a variety of solutions, including green hydrogen for export or domestic consumption, aligned with Chile’s National Green Hydrogen Strategy."

[1] https://www.aesandes.com/en/press-release/aes-andes-submits-...

Land use. It's not just a fossil fuel shill talking point.

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