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When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

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Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#71

Post by marcusverus »

galleywest200 wrote: post #35
LAC-Tech wrote: post #20

is "Migrant" a euphemism here for "illegal migrant"? If your business needs illegal labour, then it's not a viable business, and it should die. If your pay is so low that no one wants to do your work, why should you be able to break the law with impunity because your business can't compete? Innovate, or die.

Road construction could come to a halt in some portions of the US. It is estimated that ~13% of all construction workers in the US are undocumented. I would be willing to bet they are more concentrated in certain states (Texas). https://www.axios.com/2024/11/19/undocumented-workers-immigr...

10% of American men aged 25-54 don't have a job and aren't looking for one[0]. The problem isn't a lack of workers, the problem is that Americans expect higher wages than illegals. If you kick the illegals out, wages will rise until Americans are willing to do the work.

This is why Bernie opposed rampant illegal immigration before he sold out.

https://www.businessinsider.com/men-not-working-unemployment...

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#72

Post by wakawaka28 »

wrp wrote: post #70
UncleOxidant wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teens (and tweens) used to do the bulk of the lawn care that homeowners didn't do themselves. I don't think we'll ever get back to that even if all of the immigrants were to be deported. They're just not interested in doing this kind of work anymore.

Picking strawberries in Oregon was my first job, and I progressed through the usual things kids did for money then, so I know where you're coming from. However, there is a major economic change we also need to consider. It used to be you could earn enough over the summer to buy a usable car or pay college tuition. Can a kid even come close to that now? If those jobs can no longer benefit kids to the same degree, avoi…

Moneywise, the jobs could make sense for workers if we didn't import so much from other countries (fruits, veggies, and products). The same applies to construction and lawn work. Is it better for these kids to be driving for Doordash or working at McDonalds or something than working outside? For young people especially, I think the answer is no. But we all know that most people prefer to work inside an air-conditioned building if possible, even if the job actually pays less than picking strawberries or whatever.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#73

Post by DontchaKnowit »

jonfw wrote: post #67
UncleOxidant wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in strawberry & bean fields (as well as bucking hay) in Oregon when I was a teen in the 70s. It was really common then to work a couple of summers to save up for a used car or for college money. > Because of immigration these jobs are not really available for citizens anymore. I haven't heard of any teenagers taking this work in some time I don't think immigration was what killed those jobs for citizen teens…

If you think lawn care is expensive now, you’d think it was crazy expensive if the labor was only done by citizens! Teens would be much more likely to mow lawns if the lawn care market had more money in it.

It does though. Its quite lucrative...

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#74

Post by DontchaKnowit »

cybercity wrote: post #58
ipnon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point. I'm speaking of high school who are allowed to legally work in the state of Iowa. If a 16 year old willfully employing themself in an entry level job is considered exploitative child labor to you, I don't know what to say. One sad effect of the changes in labor in the state is that only citizens are beholden to labor laws, whereas those working under the table are not. So it's true there is child l…

Americans should be deeply ashamed of themselves if they think it is okay to have 16 year olds do field labour. The bar just keeps getting lower.

There is nothing wrong with this...

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#75

Post by mystified5016 »

cybercity wrote: post #58
ipnon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point. I'm speaking of high school who are allowed to legally work in the state of Iowa. If a 16 year old willfully employing themself in an entry level job is considered exploitative child labor to you, I don't know what to say. One sad effect of the changes in labor in the state is that only citizens are beholden to labor laws, whereas those working under the table are not. So it's true there is child l…

Americans should be deeply ashamed of themselves if they think it is okay to have 16 year olds do field labour. The bar just keeps getting lower.

No, this is how farm work has been for the last several thousand years. Even with the poor state of the US education system, most of us understand that.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#76

Post by dredmorbius »

projectileboy wrote: post #13
ipnon wrote: post #2

This sounds quite sinister but it was a common summer job in Iowa for teenagers. You could make enough in a summer to buy a used car. Because of immigration these jobs are not really available for citizens anymore. I haven't heard of any teenagers taking this work in some time. You had to work long hours in the sun and heat but it was "an honest day's work."

I live in Minnesota. I hear what you’re saying, but I would say two things: in general, teenagers here are not being somehow denied farm work that they really want but is unavailable; and there’s a pretty big difference between Minnesota/Iowa summer heat and picking cantaloupes in inland California. The big difference being about 20 degrees on average, with more sun.

Hotter in California perhaps, but far more humid in the Midwest.

85F / 90% humidity is probably more taxing than 100F / 30% RH.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#77

Post by dredmorbius »

throwaway984393 wrote: post #18
ipnon wrote: post #2

This sounds quite sinister but it was a common summer job in Iowa for teenagers. You could make enough in a summer to buy a used car. Because of immigration these jobs are not really available for citizens anymore. I haven't heard of any teenagers taking this work in some time. You had to work long hours in the sun and heat but it was "an honest day's work."

The jobs are available for citizens. But they don't do them. And it's not because of immigration. Think about it for more than 5 seconds. They could just stop immigration for migrant workers and suddenly give citizens jobs. Every politician wants to be known as a job creator. But they don't. Why? There is not enough workers here. Proof? COVID. They stopped letting migrant workers in and farms failed left and right fr…

US ag labour has rarely functioned in a free-market fashion.

Through 1864, roughly half of the ag states used slave labour.

California, nominally a free state, had developed (under Spanish and Mexican rule) using what was effectively slave native labour. Following statehood, ag labour was largely imported: from China in the 19th century, from Mexico and Japan in the 20th, with the Bracero programme (established in WWII), and of course Oakies during the dustbowl as immortalised in Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, all of whom were at best severely politically marginalised. Conditions in the antebellum former Confederacy long disadvantaged labour as well.

The US National Labour Relations Act (NLRA, 1935) explicitly excluded farm labor from its protections (wages, hours, conditions, unions). California eventually pased the Agricultural Labour Relations Act (ALRA) forty years later, which provided for the right to unionise (Cesar Chavez and the National Farm Workers Association features strongly in promoting this), and ... even it is fairly weak sauce despite being the only significant ag labour law in the US.

Farming itself is a marginal business, and farm labour gets the short side of that stick. The underlying economic reasons are complex, and not readily solved. It's not that the present situation is fair to farm workers at all, but a sudden shift would likely be catastrophic across the board. I'd like to see a far fairer system, but it would take significant governance and management to roll out smoothly.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#78

Post by elevation »

emidoots wrote: post #16
ipnon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point. I'm speaking of high school who are allowed to legally work in the state of Iowa. If a 16 year old willfully employing themself in an entry level job is considered exploitative child labor to you, I don't know what to say. One sad effect of the changes in labor in the state is that only citizens are beholden to labor laws, whereas those working under the table are not. So it's true there is child l…

In Iowa, it is legal for (US citizen) children as young as the age of 12 to work on farms, for an unlimited number of hours, so long as their parents grant permission and they do not miss school. They have so far been unsuccessful at legislating to raise the age limit from 12 to 14[0] as the Children's Act for Responsible Employment act has failed to pass, due to strong opposition from agricultural industry groups. M…

I'm not in AG but I'd like to relax the current restrictions on juvenile labor. If 12 year olds can work on the family farm, why not let them legally work elsewhere?

As a 12 year old tech enthusiast I would have been thrilled to work a few hours a week for the Geek Squad. Or I could have worked at a small business entering invoices into Quickbooks, answering the phone, or running the till. I wouldn't even have minded pushing a broom at the pizza place nearby if it'd come with an employee discount!

As it was, all I could do was cut grass -- which is not safer, or more educational, or as profitable for me as some of those other jobs would have been.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#79

Post by rib3ye »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #66
rib3ye wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather your tax dollars were used to subsidize farmers or do you just want to pay more for food?

You know what would make farming even cheaper? Child labour. So would indentured servitude. Or why not consider slavery? After all we've established that we're fine with breaking the law so that certain industries have lower operating costs, so these should all be on the table. No one wants to pay more for food. Besides, child slaves do the jobs Americans don't want to do! You're socially immoral if you don't support…

> why not consider slavery

You just figured it out.

Re: When the U.S. tried to replace migrant farmworkers with high schoolers (2018)

#80

Post by ImJamal »

friend_Fernando wrote: post #51
peterfirefly wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Argentina under Milei a Russian proxy? And why are you implying that he trashed the economy?

I guess you're saying he's unlike Bolsonaro, Orban, Vucic, Kickl, Trump, Weidel, Le Pen, Duterte and Farage? He's larger-than-life and bombastic. He's overthrown the political order and engineered a downward spiral faster than Maduro's. Putin couldn't ask for more. Argentina has always had problems, but economic suicide is not a disease cure. Having voiced support for Ukraine doesn't mean much. Even Trump has once or…

Argentina has lower inflation, is solving their deficit and is seeing larger than expected economic growth now that Millei is in charge. Maybe he won't fix all the issues, but it seems like things are improving and it is not an "economic suicide".
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