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It's okay to code on nights and weekends

tej.as

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Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#71

Post by koverstreet »

x0xrx wrote: post #3

A lot of people that are in tech because it’s a good job got pressured to make it their life. They reasonably pushed back, but the upshot was those of us that are passionate about programming as a hobby got pressured to not do it for fun. Both things are unreasonable. You shouldn’t have to program for fun to get a job. You can be good at it as a profession only. You also should be allowed to love it as a vocation or…

Have you never considered the absolutely /terrible/ manners of showing up to a profession where other people are passionate about what they're doing, doing the best work they know how and enjoying it - and then complaining because you only want to phone it in for a paycheck?

Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work...

Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they want an easy white collar job. There are a lot of other fulfilling jobs out there! There's no reason for you to bring the standards down for everyone just so that you feel you can keep up.

It's like being back in high school again, when everyone else was complaining about being graded on a curve - and implicit was the complaint about who they were being graded against.

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#72

Post by hollerith »

koverstreet wrote: post #71
x0xrx wrote: post #3

A lot of people that are in tech because it’s a good job got pressured to make it their life. They reasonably pushed back, but the upshot was those of us that are passionate about programming as a hobby got pressured to not do it for fun. Both things are unreasonable. You shouldn’t have to program for fun to get a job. You can be good at it as a profession only. You also should be allowed to love it as a vocation or…

Have you never considered the absolutely /terrible/ manners of showing up to a profession where other people are passionate about what they're doing, doing the best work they know how and enjoying it - and then complaining because you only want to phone it in for a paycheck? Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work... Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they w…

According to you, is it possible to do a programming job well while not deriving enjoyment from it?

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#73

Post by throw__away7391 »

hollerith wrote: post #72
koverstreet wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never considered the absolutely /terrible/ manners of showing up to a profession where other people are passionate about what they're doing, doing the best work they know how and enjoying it - and then complaining because you only want to phone it in for a paycheck? Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work... Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they w…

According to you, is it possible to do a programming job well while not deriving enjoyment from it?

I think it is very unlikely. If you're a super disciplined individual and you can continuously overcome your dislike of programming day after day and force yourself to practice, maybe you'll be really really effective, having the skills on one hand and also never getting distracted by interesting programming problems and keeping the focus on business purpose. These people are insanely annoying to work with because they constantly shoot down every fun abstraction you want to implement, but they can get a lot done. They're also extremely rare. To me this doesn't sound like a fun way to live life either, but to each their own..

More commonly, they don't enjoy it so they don't improve outside work. In my experience these people introduce and embrace a lot of synthetic metrics, generally resist change once they get comfortable with particular technical paradigms, generally are not knowledgable about anything that's not directly in the scope of their day to day, and are quite unable to lead anything new. They do best in environments where someone else has already laid the foundation, tasks are repetitive and predictable, and success is measured in story points rather than the quality of software delivered. Possibly they do well in the first few years of a new project, but over time they will bring down the overall quality of whatever they are working on.

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#74

Post by koverstreet »

hollerith wrote: post #72
koverstreet wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never considered the absolutely /terrible/ manners of showing up to a profession where other people are passionate about what they're doing, doing the best work they know how and enjoying it - and then complaining because you only want to phone it in for a paycheck? Perhaps you chose the wrong line of work... Not everyone has to be a programmer. Not everyone is entitled to be a programmer just because they w…

According to you, is it possible to do a programming job well while not deriving enjoyment from it?

Sometimes, yes. There are always times when the work just needs to be done, and there's always going to be parts that are less pleasant and others that are more pleasant.

But I got into programming nearly 30 years ago because it was fascinating, and amazing, and it still is. I love seeing what I can build, I love using decades of accumulated skills to their full potential. And I love writing code that people use and that makes users happy.

And more and more I see what was once a wonderful /culture/ being taken over by corporate 9-5 types who want to show up, go to a bunch of meetings and talk about anything but work, pick up a few tickets, and call it a day.

There's a dark side to professionalism....

Personally, I'll only work with people who are here because they want to be here - it's too draining trying to get anything done with corporate drones.

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#75

Post by koverstreet »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #73
hollerith wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to you, is it possible to do a programming job well while not deriving enjoyment from it?

I think it is very unlikely. If you're a super disciplined individual and you can continuously overcome your dislike of programming day after day and force yourself to practice, maybe you'll be really really effective, having the skills on one hand and also never getting distracted by interesting programming problems and keeping the focus on business purpose. These people are insanely annoying to work with because th…

I may have to steal some of this for the next time I have to explain on LKML why I don't care to work with the corporate world, you really hit the nail on the head :)

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#76

Post by kcartlidge »

I've been coding for around 45 years, the vast majority of them in a professional capacity. I still code an hour or more most evenings and at least triple that at the weekends.

I love writing software. Over the festive period I wrote a text-based double-entry bookkeeping system with balance sheets and income (p&l) statements. For no reason; I just wanted to.

And that's how it is for me. In my own time I code what I want and purely for pleasure. Sometimes it relates to work, but it is never actual work stuff.

My work-life balance has the usual family aspects, but the main thing for me is making that clear distinction on what my motivation is for what I'm working on. As long the motivation isn't for work benefit that's fine, even if the learning outcome does eventually help there.

Re: It's okay to code on nights and weekends

#79

Post by [deleted] »

shswkna wrote: post #70
threatofrain wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hypothetical employer, should I be allowed to select for people who love programming because my internal metrics say they're an awesome fit? If so, then that's where the fundamental pressure is going to come from. So we can be on HN and sing "Oh, you do you!" but that won't relieve the fundamental source of pressure.

If a company’s goal is to bring rockets to mars/solve world transport logistics/create driverless cars/etc/etc, you are not going to care about what is fair or what creates pressure. You will find the persons that can get the job done. Things like preventing burn out or balancing work with personal life will be dealt within the scope of reaching that goal. Many sensitivities in this thread or considerations of whats…

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