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The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

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Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#71

Post by tptacek »

mandmandam wrote: post #70
tptacek wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have more gun deaths because we have vastly more guns than other countries, and more car deaths because we drive a lot more. I think researchers broadly agree with me. But you do you; this doesn't seem like an especially promising discussion.

> we have vastly more guns than other countries, Yeah, most of the world sees that as a mental health issue. "Gun nuts" is the term most often used. And, over half of all gun deaths are suicides, so I stand by my statement that better mental health services would greatly reduce the number of gun deaths. > and more car deaths because we drive a lot more. I didn't say anything about car deaths. That was you, and I didn…

No, the stat I am working from is "homicides", not "gun deaths"; I'm just inferring that guns drive those homicides.

I will leave you with this: our health care system has the same structure in basically all 50 states. But CVD outcomes vary wildly among states: Minnesota, California, Massachusetts, and Colorado have outcomes that exceed those in the rest of the G8, while Oklahoma, Mississippi, and Alabama are so bad they drag the whole country down. Health insurers in Oregon and Rhode Island don't function differently than they do in Alabama.

No part of our life expectancy gap has anything to do with health insurance.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#72

Post by delichon »

booleandilemma wrote: post #31

The author mentions his favorite philosophy is stoicism. A stoic could never hope to understand the motivations of someone like Luigi. A stoic could never bring about change.

Marcus Aurelius, the famously stoic Roman emperor, made liberal reforms during his reign like increased welfare, orphanages, higher taxes on the wealthy and famine relief. You can use stoicism as a shield to hide under, or to fight behind. It's up to the wielder.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#73

Post by mandmandam »

tptacek wrote: post #71
mandmandam wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we have vastly more guns than other countries, Yeah, most of the world sees that as a mental health issue. "Gun nuts" is the term most often used. And, over half of all gun deaths are suicides, so I stand by my statement that better mental health services would greatly reduce the number of gun deaths. > and more car deaths because we drive a lot more. I didn't say anything about car deaths. That was you, and I didn…

No, the stat I am working from is "homicides", not "gun deaths"; I'm just inferring that guns drive those homicides. I will leave you with this: our health care system has the same structure in basically all 50 states. But CVD outcomes vary wildly among states: Minnesota, California, Massachusetts, and Colorado have outcomes that exceed those in the rest of the G8, while Oklahoma, Mississippi, and Alabama are so bad…

> No, the stat I am working from is "homicides", not "gun deaths"; I'm just inferring that guns drive those homicides.

If there's a huge, outlying number of homicides, but there's even more suicides by gun death, does that sound like a mental health system that's working? It's so weird that you'd think this strengthens your case somehow.

> our health care system has the same structure in basically all 50 states. But CVD outcomes vary wildly among states

As you would expect, because:

1. Not everyone in every state has equal access to coverage. States like Alabama and Mississippi have higher rates of uninsured people.

2. Wealthier states with better public health systems invest more in preventive care.

3. Poorer states may have fewer resources that discourage routine doctor visits. A hospital in Massachusetts might have state-of-the-art facilities and specialists, while rural hospitals in Alabama might lack funding or staff.

And, there's lots of other variations by state which could affect CVD outcomes; diet, smoking rates, pollution etc (which often lead back to healthcare, and access to it).

> No part of our life expectancy gap has anything to do with health insurance.

I urge you to reconsider this stance; not just because it's deeply wrong, but because it ignores and enables some really evil stuff. I've given you all the pieces you need to see that, because I know that you have all the intelligence necessary to put them together. I do hope you put them together.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#74

Post by tptacek »

mandmandam wrote: post #73
tptacek wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the stat I am working from is "homicides", not "gun deaths"; I'm just inferring that guns drive those homicides. I will leave you with this: our health care system has the same structure in basically all 50 states. But CVD outcomes vary wildly among states: Minnesota, California, Massachusetts, and Colorado have outcomes that exceed those in the rest of the G8, while Oklahoma, Mississippi, and Alabama are so bad…

> No, the stat I am working from is "homicides", not "gun deaths"; I'm just inferring that guns drive those homicides. If there's a huge, outlying number of homicides, but there's even more suicides by gun death, does that sound like a mental health system that's working? It's so weird that you'd think this strengthens your case somehow. > our health care system has the same structure in basically all 50 states. But…

No, it isn't wrong. The difference between the approaches we have here is that I'm looking stuff up, and have actual information in front of me, and you're defending a narrative. If your narrative was supported by the facts, I'd be defending it too. I don't care about insurers. But it isn't; attacking insurers is problematic not just because murder is wrong (it deeply is), but also because it's not fixing the problem.

[life expectancy gap causal statistics]

[national health expenditure]

Two useful searches for you.

Insurers are simply not where the costs in our system come from. In fact: if you allowed Medicare to enroll patients of all ages, its administrative efficiency statistics would quickly regress to those of private insurers, for mathematically simple reasons.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#75

Post by archagon »

tptacek wrote: post #67
benreesman wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can keep a lot of discussion without Godwin’s law or whatever: we really stuck on “Hitler”?

I'm not doing a "Godwin's law". I literally have on my screen a poll, which generated a whole news cycle, in which more people supported Hitler, in the United States, than are claimed to be supporting the CEO murderer here. My point --- I think obviously --- is that 15% support in an opinion poll is a meaningless metric. Tens of millions of Americans do not in fact support Hitler. There's a whole literature on why th…

I’m not sure why you think tens of millions of Americans do not support Hitler in some way.

Kanye seems to like him.

Trump has said positive things about him.

There are more white supremacists around than you might think.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#76

Post by tptacek »

archagon wrote: post #75
tptacek wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not doing a "Godwin's law". I literally have on my screen a poll, which generated a whole news cycle, in which more people supported Hitler, in the United States, than are claimed to be supporting the CEO murderer here. My point --- I think obviously --- is that 15% support in an opinion poll is a meaningless metric. Tens of millions of Americans do not in fact support Hitler. There's a whole literature on why th…

I’m not sure why you think tens of millions of Americans do not support Hitler in some way. Kanye seems to like him. Trump has said positive things about him. There are more white supremacists around than you might think.

You know, I don't agree with you, but if you equate the mainstream-ness of people who approve of what the CEO killer did with those of Hitler supports, the dot product of our takes here will be strongly positive, and there's no need for us to hash this out.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#77

Post by archagon »

tptacek wrote: post #45
mandmandam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your tone, I would bet that your cited "writers from both ends of the political spectrum and points between" read the fake manifesto [0]. The (more likely) real [1] one isn't as easily dismissed. 0 - https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2024/12/fact-check-fake-m... 1 - https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/luigis-manifesto

I'm referring to the especially dumb one you linked at [1].

I should note that aggressively calling something dumb over and over again does not actually make it dumb.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#78

Post by tptacek »

archagon wrote: post #77
tptacek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to the especially dumb one you linked at [1].

I should note that aggressively calling something dumb over and over again does not actually make it dumb.

It's very short, so you can just read it and see how dumb it is.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#79

Post by archagon »

tptacek wrote: post #78
archagon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note that aggressively calling something dumb over and over again does not actually make it dumb.

It's very short, so you can just read it and see how dumb it is.

I did not find it to be terribly dumb, simple though it was.

Re: The Riddle of Luigi Mangione

#80

Post by tm-infringement »

The writers of the beigeness might deny it, but assassination can work. Shinto Abe is just the most recent example. The "win condition" of the immediate destruction of the rentseeking healthcare-insurance complex in the US is a strawman. The killer achieved his goal and his success was greater than he probably imagined.

The truth is that the average person is indifferent to the murder, or right-down approving. HN is a bubble about this for obvious reasons. This a stronger signal for the power-brokers to take it easy and fix some of the perverse incentives than a long career in activism.

We live, and always have lived in a world in which a stranger can decide that you’re a bad person, and kill you. Knowing this reality isn't condoning it, or believing that common political violence is a good state of affairs.

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