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Who can claim Aristotle?

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Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#71

Post by gsf_emergency »

082349872349872 wrote: post #18
Boogie_Man wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Catholic Church does retain elements of Aristotelian metaphysics in its theology. A great example is the Catholic teaching of transubstantiation, wherein subject and accident terminology is utilized to explain how bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ while retaining the characteristics of the original elements. Church history is fascinating, even if one isn't a Christian.

The bit about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin also becomes more interesting after one realises the question was not one of determining some finite number, but finite or infinite — do angels* have volume? (I don't think theologians distinguished countable infinities from other infinities; that's much more recent, right?) * this is probably also a lesson that, before spending a thousand years arguing ove…

Re: zero-extension of Golden Path. Only riffing on out-of-fictional-universe concepts

if the father (pre-god) showed that prescience was possible, then the son must show that that immunity to prescience is trivial, and one (& only?) Way to achieve that is to make sure everything happens at once..

Re: metal vs stone

https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E4%B9%90

Note that the bell was a later addition. Earlier (de)script(ion) only had gourds on a (wooden?) base, retconned to threads on a base.

Phonology further hints that the metallic twang* (in qing/zhong) hadn't encroached on the vibes yet. In parallel (I guess), the qing evolved from the qin -- a completely organic instrument

https://www.360doc.cn/article/31905874_1086747931.html

（immortal inventors)

*bronze bows?

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#72

Post by optimalsolver »

mbivert wrote: post #70
optimalsolver wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from a cost-effectiveness point of view What's the cost-effectiveness of a master selling one of his female slave's children away from her, which was a regular occurrence?

I meant in general: I'd expect moderately happy slaves to perform better, and the cost of keeping them moderately happy lower than acquiring new slaves over and over; creating slaves has a cost. Accurately answering your question requires writing a thesis: one needs extensive access to accurate data spanning thousands of years, a solid grasp of history, psychology, ancient customs, etc. Those situations are full of s…

You might want to look up the death rate of slaves in Brazil, Chile, Haiti, and most of the New World. You'll be rethinking your entire thesis.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#73

Post by 082349872349872 »

gsf_emergency wrote: post #71
082349872349872 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bit about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin also becomes more interesting after one realises the question was not one of determining some finite number, but finite or infinite — do angels* have volume? (I don't think theologians distinguished countable infinities from other infinities; that's much more recent, right?) * this is probably also a lesson that, before spending a thousand years arguing ove…

Re: zero-extension of Golden Path. Only riffing on out-of-fictional-universe concepts if the father (pre-god) showed that prescience was possible, then the son must show that that immunity to prescience is trivial, and one (& only?) Way to achieve that is to make sure everything happens at once.. Re: metal vs stone https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E4%B9%90 Note that the bell was a later addition. Earlier (de)script…

metallophones vs xylophones are machines vs mandalas* in music?

* https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/between-mandala-and-...

Something which I've only been vibing thus far is the idea that Morlocks/Children of Martha ought not to be worried about the mandalas of Eloi/Children of Mary (except when practising husbandry for sustenance!), which is a very machine orientation.

In the CH context, I hope we're aiming for the upper right quadrant, with Solidarity driving the caring and Know-how driving the knowing, with generally accepted ideas being that the more we know, the more we can afford to care, and the more we care, the faster we can make knowledge-positive adjustments across a society not all of whose members are particularly knowledge-adjacent. (the former emphasised on the centre-right and the latter on the centre-left)

As with other electorates, the centre is clearly weaker than it was two decades ago, but it still exists (if reduced to a single "the middle" party); when the far right truthfully claims to be the largest party, they mean they are currently the largest within a 5-major-party system. Also something I take to be a positive sign: when I first came here, the far right, as is customary, wrapped their candidates in the flag; part of their electoral success has been via moderation: making such blatant emotional appeals more rarely.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#74

Post by zvr »

analog31 wrote: post #14
motohagiography wrote: post #12

His ideas provide a useful filter with words personal qualities, and the moderation of virtues in Nichomchean Ethics pretty much describes what it means when we say someone is 'honest.' it's a foundational read, along with the stoics. the provocative aspect of Aristotle today is that for people who see themselves as not on the level of citizens and who reject being compared by the virtues he (and later, aquinas) arti…

Ask HN: What's a favored translation these days?

I know you've only asked for a translation, but if you are interested in more, there is an edition by Oxford University Press (April 11, 2002), 480 pages, ISBN 978-0198752714. An English translation by Christopher Rowe that strives to be meticulously accurate yet also accessible. The translation is accompanied by Sarah Broadie's detailed line-by-line commentary. https://a.co/d/4bOuqI5

Copying from an online review (at random): If you want only a translation, and quality doesn't matter much, this translation will probably be too expensive for you. However, if you want an extensive introduction (a historical one from pg. 3-7, a philosophical one from pg. 9-91), outlines on each book and commentary (pg. 261-452), a list of Greek vocabulary (pg. 453-5), a bibliography, and index, then this is your ticket.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#75

Post by mbivert »

optimalsolver wrote: post #72
mbivert wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant in general: I'd expect moderately happy slaves to perform better, and the cost of keeping them moderately happy lower than acquiring new slaves over and over; creating slaves has a cost. Accurately answering your question requires writing a thesis: one needs extensive access to accurate data spanning thousands of years, a solid grasp of history, psychology, ancient customs, etc. Those situations are full of s…

You might want to look up the death rate of slaves in Brazil, Chile, Haiti, and most of the New World. You'll be rethinking your entire thesis.

I think you're missing the point.

Slavery is an old thing[0]. Even assuming the death rates are correct, one can't honestly conclude that what happened in the West in the past 500 years is similar to what happened, say, in Antiquity in the West[1] - and that's what most relevant to Aristotle - or amongst ancient Jews[2].

I know that there are too many unknowns for me to even have a clear thesis to begin with.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#History

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_antiquity

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(biblical)

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#76

Post by optimalsolver »

mbivert wrote: post #75
optimalsolver wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to look up the death rate of slaves in Brazil, Chile, Haiti, and most of the New World. You'll be rethinking your entire thesis.

I think you're missing the point. Slavery is an old thing[0]. Even assuming the death rates are correct, one can't honestly conclude that what happened in the West in the past 500 years is similar to what happened, say, in Antiquity in the West[1] - and that's what most relevant to Aristotle - or amongst ancient Jews[2]. I know that there are too many unknowns for me to even have a clear thesis to begin with. [0]: ht…

Are you kidding me? You think the slaves being worked to death in the Roman silver mines or galley ships had it any better than the ones in the New World? Pre-modern slavery was just as brutal.

You seem curiously attached to the happiness in slavery fantasy.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#77

Post by mbivert »

optimalsolver wrote: post #76
mbivert wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point. Slavery is an old thing[0]. Even assuming the death rates are correct, one can't honestly conclude that what happened in the West in the past 500 years is similar to what happened, say, in Antiquity in the West[1] - and that's what most relevant to Aristotle - or amongst ancient Jews[2]. I know that there are too many unknowns for me to even have a clear thesis to begin with. [0]: ht…

Are you kidding me? You think the slaves being worked to death in the Roman silver mines or galley ships had it any better than the ones in the New World? Pre-modern slavery was just as brutal. You seem curiously attached to the happiness in slavery fantasy.

Let me repeat myself a third and last time: I don't have enough data points to conclude; acquisition of enough data points to reach a honest opinion is to daunting of a task.

It's not because I don't share your viewpoint that I share its exact opposite either.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#78

Post by optimalsolver »

mbivert wrote: post #77
optimalsolver wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding me? You think the slaves being worked to death in the Roman silver mines or galley ships had it any better than the ones in the New World? Pre-modern slavery was just as brutal. You seem curiously attached to the happiness in slavery fantasy.

Let me repeat myself a third and last time: I don't have enough data points to conclude; acquisition of enough data points to reach a honest opinion is to daunting of a task. It's not because I don't share your viewpoint that I share its exact opposite either.

What I think is happening here is that your image of a typical historical slave is a mildly treated house servant. >99.9% of slaves have either been toiling in brutal conditions involving large agricultural enterprises, mining, or construction projects (men) or forced into sex work (women). The latter is actually more evil.

Even in the case of the house servant you imagine the typical slave to be, you have not considered factors like having their children sold away from them, or the death of a kind master leading to being sold or inherited by a wicked one.

There are no happy slaves.

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#79

Post by gsf_emergency »

082349872349872 wrote: post #73
gsf_emergency wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: zero-extension of Golden Path. Only riffing on out-of-fictional-universe concepts if the father (pre-god) showed that prescience was possible, then the son must show that that immunity to prescience is trivial, and one (& only?) Way to achieve that is to make sure everything happens at once.. Re: metal vs stone https://www.dong-chinese.com/wiki/%E4%B9%90 Note that the bell was a later addition. Earlier (de)script…

metallophones vs xylophones are machines vs mandalas* in music? * https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/between-mandala-and-... Something which I've only been vibing thus far is the idea that Morlocks/Children of Martha ought not to be worried about the mandalas of Eloi/Children of Mary (except when practising husbandry for sustenance!), which is a very machine orientation. In the CH context, I hope we're aiming fo…

Very nice, I hadn't read that either..

>wrapped their candidates in the flag

Captain Helvetica? Who shall captain Finningia?

Let me know what orientation you think MAC is

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42345337

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42175664

(Mutual Adoption Club)

Re: Who can claim Aristotle?

#80

Post by 082349872349872 »

gsf_emergency wrote: post #79
082349872349872 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

metallophones vs xylophones are machines vs mandalas* in music? * https://contraptions.venkateshrao.com/p/between-mandala-and-... Something which I've only been vibing thus far is the idea that Morlocks/Children of Martha ought not to be worried about the mandalas of Eloi/Children of Mary (except when practising husbandry for sustenance!), which is a very machine orientation. In the CH context, I hope we're aiming fo…

Very nice, I hadn't read that either.. > wrapped their candidates in the flag Captain Helvetica? Who shall captain Finningia? Let me know what orientation you think MAC is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42345337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42175664 ( Mutual Adoption Club )

MACs really remind me of my hobbyhorse of constructing a "felt of society" (an irregular interwoven structure is fairly isotropic) instead of a "fabric of society" (a regular structure produces cleavage axes along which it's easily torn). Unfortunately marketing (of both the economic and the political kinds) aims squarely at the latter.

(also, the english phrase "kith and kin", which I've heard Bay Area denizens interpret as "kin are the ones you didn't get to choose; kith are the ones you do")

I'd call them on the caring end: the "traditional" (in the sense that the middle class cares, and cared, about them in a picture-postcard way the most) family is mechanistic because it is so legible. I'd say in my limited working class experience that the working class is more pragmatic than sentimental and so you'll find more MAC-like arrangements (if not so far along, but certainly acknowledged more than among the neighbours of Mrs. Grundy) because in that milieu, whatever works, works.

[Captain Helvetia would explain .ch; at least my 5 CHF coins indicate Helvetia is traditionally female, agreeing with the Suomi-neito, who can be depicted in the shape of the country, either realistically: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ApJcldK7o4HS89KSKHIQ... or anime-style: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/19/23/a9/1923a92eb1364852df38... ]

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