How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired • Hacker News Board

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#71

Post by tkiolp4 » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #11

flog wrote: post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

Interesting. I used to work mainly with european developers (dutch, french, germans, russians, spaniards, polish, etc.) and I always could speak my mind, and others would do so. No BS, no avoiding direct confrontation. But more recently I have been working with ex-faang american developers and I don’t like it. It’s not that they are like indians and the like, but definitely not as direct and straightforward as europeans.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#72

Post by lucgray » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

nithril wrote: post #52

danjl wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be wonderful if the world could accept blunt feedback. It is certainly easier to give and more in-line with what most technical people would prefer. However, we work with humans, and we have learned an awful lot about how humans respond to language, especially criticism. The advice here applies to giving feedback to any human , not just superiors. As you spend time working with humans, you learn, perhaps slo…

Definitively agree. Being blunt, too direct is just the opposite of a good and effective communication.

Being too blunt raises defenses and completely wipes out the effectiveness of your feedback. Folks that are invested in outcomes make choices for good reason, and they've probably got a track record to back it up. You have to meet them where they are, and considering their communication styles and how they make decisions will improve the chances you're actually heard.

It's a fact of life that people shut down when approached with evidence that refutes their world view or choices. It doesn't matter if it's your boss or grandparents.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#73

Post by inopinatus » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

This is entirely the perspective of an abusive CEO. As we say here in Australia, get fucked. What an entitled grub.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#74

Post by steveBK123 » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:39 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

Largely agree, 19 years here. Good managers and bad managers alike have weaknesses that are largely in-built personality traits. Telling them won't change how they've spent decades behaving.

The two worst managers I had clearly had anger management issues and some sort of inferiority complex, theres no feedback to fix that.

Try to stick with good managers as long as you can, especially if their weaknesses that don't bother you too much, understand where it's coming from, and try not to take it personally.

The 3 examples at the top of the article - unclear guidance, unable to set priorities, and not training new hires .. these are good benign issues that I've seen repeatedly from good managers.

You can remind them in a friendly tone why things are happening -(as they raise yet another low importance high urgency task) "if we keep switching to these urgent but less important tasks, the long-term important things (give examples) you are unhappy with the pace of will continue to be slow". The best outcome tends to be a 20% reduction in the undesired behavior, over many months. It doesn't go away or get unlearned.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#75

Post by cdavid » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

kybernetikos wrote: post #14

Most of those examples (not giving enough direction, not training new hires enough, not being clear enough on priorities) are probably not going to be surprises for the person, and if you give feedback that shows you want someone to behave differently without having given some thought about why they aren't already then your feedback talks more about your own lack of experience and empathy than anything else. To give…

> Imagine the difference between "I want to give you feedback that you aren't spending enough time with new hires" vs "I know you've been wanting to spend more time with the new hires, why don't you take them for lunch and send me to your status meeting over Tuesday lunch time this week."

This is the proper answer. Ultimately, feedback should be about changing something. My experience is that most people are neither good at giving or receiving feedback, and that includes myself. There are more effective ways to change things.

OP's is useful when you have to give feedback, which is expected in most large companies in some form or other (evals, etc.).

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#76

Post by inopinatus » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:40 PM UTC

thanksgiving wrote: post #60

5cott0 wrote: post #35

Captain Miller: "I don't gripe to you, Reiben. I'm a captain. There's a chain of command. Gripes go up, not down. Always up. You gripe to me, I gripe to my superior officer, so on, so on, and so on. I don't gripe to you. I don't gripe in front of you. You should know that as a Ranger." Private Reiben: "I'm sorry, sir, but uh... let's say you weren't a captain, or maybe I was a major. What would you say then?" Captain…

I don’t get it. He said gripe to his superior but he is basically kissing ass?

No, that is exactly how you inform a superior officer that you believe the mission is a waste of time, effort, equipment, and manpower, and will probably get everyone killed for next-to-no benefit.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#77

Post by firefoxd » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

I think this article is teaching you how to dance on a song that isn't being played for you. Unless the feedback is something that is going to benefit, or improve your own work, then toss it aside. My experience [1].

Unless your company is in pursuit of a noble human endeavor, just make sure you get some good work done, and make good connections along them way. The truth is rarely what a company seeks. So if your manager is imperfect, don't sweat it.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21766903

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#78

Post by zeroonetwothree » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

cle wrote: post #36

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. You're assuming that the subordinate's feedback is sufficiently important to the business. It might not be. It might also not be important to the business if subordinates leave b/c their feedback is disregarded…

It’s even more important to give it bluntly if the feedback is irrelevant. That way you’ve wasted less time.

Me: “we aren’t giving enough guidance to new hires” Leader: “it’s not a priority for us since we are freezing hiring”

Perfectly good interaction, where you didn’t waste time sneakily phrasing things you think you know better than the leader. And you learned some valuable info about the org priorities as a result.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#79

Post by zeroonetwothree » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:49 PM UTC

seanp2k2 wrote: post #64

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

At [company that purportedly highly values candor], I’ve seen multiple people get canned by VPs or directors they’ve criticized internally. Granted, these situations were cases where this was communicated either in a larger feedback meeting that was supposed to be a “safe” space for such feedback, or via other communications that were visible to more than just the person being criticized. These criticisms were defini…

I suppose it depends on what type of “criticism” it is. Generally feedback is most valuable when it’s constructive not critical. If you just say “X is bad” that isn’t very useful no matter how you phrase it.

I would be surprised if respectful constructive criticism was met with firing but I suppose it does happen. Probably not the best to be working for those people in any case.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#80

Post by zeroonetwothree » Sat, Nov 23, 2024, 10:50 PM UTC

herval wrote: post #53

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

That’s nice in theory. In practice, the likelihood of you working for someone who’s unable to process the truth and will shoot the messenger is very high

I don’t know if it’s “very high”. It can happen but on average I think successful people tend to be more reasonable and intelligent than average (not always obviously).