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A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

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Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#71
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI converging with medical technology is a really dangerous space, for obvious reasons. An article like this does make me worry it's being rushed through, but not because of the author's objections, instead because of their ignorance of what is and what isn't AI I mean, worth pointing out that OpenAI has been shoving LLMs into people's faces for going on about a year and half now at global scale and calling it AI,…

The simple state machines and decision trees that make enemies move and attack in video games, we also call AI. AI is a loose term and always has been. It's like the term "robot": we call any machine a robot which either a) resembles a human or part of one (e.g., a robotic arm), or b) can perform some significant human labor that involves decision making (e.g., a robot car that drives itself). Similarly, AI is anythi…

> The simple state machines and decision trees that make enemies move and attack in video games, we also call AI.

Yes but no game companies have ever marketed their game asserting that the things your shooting are, in fact, self-aware conscious intelligences.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#72
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't trust humans" but you can trust a non deterministic black box to take their place?

Humans already are non-deterministic black boxes, so I'm not sure I would use that comparison.

Humans are accountable. You can sue a human.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#73

Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). In a few years, AIs trained by big corps will run the show and humans will be required to interface with them to do anything of value. Similar to what they…

Some of us look forward to that future where you mostly just interact with AI. The one depressing us is not turning running over our goverment to AI. The sooner we can do that the better, you can't trust humans.

What looks like turning things over to AI is really turning things over to the people who own the AI, which is another thing entirely.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#75

Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). In a few years, AIs trained by big corps will run the show and humans will be required to interface with them to do anything of value. Similar to what they…

> Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas).

Kinda, that's the kind of enshittification customers/users can expect.

The truly terrifying "promise" of AI is to free the ownership class from most of its need of labor. If the promise is truly realized, what labor remains will likely be so specialized and high-skill that huge numbers of people will be completely excluded from the economy.

Almost all of us here are laborers, though many don't identify as such.

Our society absolutely does not have the ideological foundations to accommodate mass amounts of unemployed people, especially at the top.

The best outcome is "AI" hits a wall and is a flop like blockchain: really sexy demos, but ultimately falls far, far short of the hype.

The worst outcome is Sam Altman builds an AGI, and he's not magnanimous enough to run soup kitchens and homeless shelters for us and our descendants, as he pursues egotistical mega-projects with his AI minions.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#76
post #22
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Driving down the cost of manufacturing because of process standardization and automation brought down the cost of consumer goods, and labor's value. And quality as well.

Not really, the quality we're able to produce at scale is the best it's ever been in the world. The "quality of everything has been in decline" isn't due to advances in manufacturing but the economic factors that are present even without those advances. Rapid inflation over a relatively short period of time has forced everyone to desperately try and maintain close to their pre-inflation prices because workers didn't…

> because workers didn't

Do you mean immediately? At peak inflation wages weren't keeping pace, but wage growth is exceeding inflation right now to catch back up.

Incomes have been, on average, stagnant for hundreds of years – as far back as the data goes. It is unlikely that this time will be different.

> I hope eventually there's a tipping point where the powers that be

You did mention the US. Presumably you're not talking about a dictatorship. The powers that be are the population at large. I'm sure they are acutely aware of this. They have to live it, after all.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#77
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI is better in simulating communication but worse in understanding. >you can do the same thing with GPT-4o and get a reasonable response in no time at all -- at and no cost. Reasonable doesn't mean correct. Who is liable if it's the wrong answer?

"AI" is basically a vast, curated, compressed database with a powerful index. If the database reflects the current state of the art, it'll have better understanding than the majority of human practitioners. You may say it will "simulate understanding" -- but in this case the simulation would be indistinguishable from the real thing, thus it would be the real thing. (Really "indiscernible" in the philosophical sense o…

> "AI" is basically a vast, curated, compressed database with a powerful index. If the database reflects the current state of the art, it'll have better understanding than the majority of human practitioners.

But it's not. You're missing the point entirely and don't know what you're advocating for.

A dictionary contains all the words necessary to describe any concept and rudimentary definitions to help you string sentences together but you wouldn't have a doctor diagnose someone's medical condition with a dictionary, despite the fact that it contains most if not all of the concepts necessary to describe and diagnose any disease. It's useful information, but not organized in a way that is conducive to the task at hand.

I assume based on the way you're describing AI that you're referring to LLMs broadly, which, again, are spicy autocorrect. Super simplified, they're just big masses of understanding of what things might come in what order, what words or concepts have proximity to one another, and what words and sentences look like. They lack (and really cannot develop) the ability to perform acts of deductive reasoning, to come up with creative or new ideas, or to actually understand the answers they're giving. If they connect a bunch of irrelevant dots they will not second guess their answer if something seems off. They will not consult with other experts to get outside opinions on biases or details they overlooked or missed. They have no concept of details. They have no concept of expertise. They cannot ask questions to get you to expand on vague things you said that a doctor has intuition might be important

The idea that you could type some symptoms into ChatGPT and get a reasonable diagnosis is foolish beyond comprehension. ChatGPT cannot reliably count the number of letters in a word. If it gives you an answer you don't like and you say that's wrong it will instantly correct itself, and sometimes still give you the wrong answer in direct contradiction to what you said. Have you used google, lately? Gemini AI summaries at the tops of the search results often contain misleading or completely incorrect information.

ChatGPT isn't poring over medical literature and trying to find references to things that sound like what you described and then drawing conclusions, it's just finding groups of letters with proximity to the ones you gave it (without any concept of what the medical field is.) ChatGPT is a machine that gives you an answer in the (impressively close, no doubt) shape of the answer you'd expect when asked a question that incorporates massive amounts of irrelevant data from all sorts of places (including, for example, snake oil alternative medicine sites and conspiracy theory content) that are also being considered as part of your answer.

AI undoubtedly has a place in medicine, in the sorts of contexts it's already being used in. Specialized machine learning algorithms can be trained to examine medical imaging and detect patterns that look like cancers that humans might miss. Algorithms can be trained to identify or detect warning signs for diseases divined from analyses of large numbers of specific cases. This stuff is real, already in the field, and I'm not experienced enough in the space to know how well it works, but it's the stuff that has real promise.

LLMs are not general artificial intelligence. They're prompted text generators that are largely being tuned as a consumer product that sells itself on the basis of the fact that it feels impressive. Every single time I've seen someone try to apply one to any field of experienced knowledge work they either give up using it for anything but the most simple tasks, because it's bad at the things it's done, or the user winds up Dunning-Kreugering themselves into not learning anything.

If you are seriously asking ChatGPT for medical diagnoses, for your own sake, stop it. Go to an actual doctor. I am not at all suggesting that the current state of healthcare anywhere in particular is perfect but the solution is not to go ask your toaster if you have cancer.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#78
AI is a tool. Doctors can use the tool to ensure they haven't overlooked anything. At the end of the day, it's still doctors who are practicing medicine and are responsible for treatment.

Yes, there are a lot of bridges we need to cross with regards to the best practices for using semi-intelligent tools. These tools are in their infancy, so I expect there's going to be a lot we learn over the next five to ten years and a lot of policy and procedure that get put in place.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#79
post #75

Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). In a few years, AIs trained by big corps will run the show and humans will be required to interface with them to do anything of value. Similar to what they…

> Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). Kinda, that's the kind of enshittification customers/users can expect. The truly terrifying "promise" of AI is to free the ownership class from most of it…

> The worst outcome is Sam Altman builds an AGI

Sam Altman doesn't need to build an AGI for this process to happen. Companies already demonstrate that they're satisfied with a lame AI that work just barely enough to replace most workers.

Re: A neurology ICU nurse on AI in hospitals

#80

Everyone should be terrified. The "promise" of AI is the following: remove any kind of remaining communication between humans, because that is "inefficient", and replace it with an AI that will mediate all human interactions (in business and even in other areas). In a few years, AIs trained by big corps will run the show and humans will be required to interface with them to do anything of value. Similar to what they…

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